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  1. #316
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    I don't love Jerry Jones. I think he's been an okay GM. The 3 superbowls that came early in his tenure have spoiled cowboys fans. Some teams haven't seen one let alone 3. If he's the reason for loses than is he the reason for wins? As far as facts I've stated plenty of facts that you've chosen to omit. Jimmy Johnson wanting to trade Irvin before trading Walker, you denying any involvement from Jerry in the trade. the Manderich over Aikman thing. Which u rebuked by saying I wanted a burger but had a salad instead. The only way that applies to Jerry picking Aikman when Jimmy wanted Manderich is if you wanted a burger but your boss told you to have a salad.

    I could point out picks like Witten or Ware. I could point out signings like Deion. All I'm saying is give credit as often as u give hate. This forum has turned into a bash Jerry Jones and Tony Romo party. And as far as facts go why is it a fact that Jerry Jones is the worst GM of all time as you say. That's your opinion as is most arguments sports related.

  2. #317
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    FACTS

    Jimmy Johnson wanted to draft Tony Manderich over Aikman.
    Jimmy Johnson tried trading Irvin before ever considering trading Walker.
    Jimmy Johnson wasn't using Emmitt until Emmitt complained of lack of carries, the next season Norv was hired and Emmitt flourished.
    Bill Parcells didn't want to draft Ware Jerry did.
    JERRY JONES HIRED JIMMY JOHNSON! Those 3 superbowls don't happen without Jerry.

  3. #318
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    Honestly, both of you guys have a very good point. But every thread is only talking about Jerry Jones. This is just like last year... And its happening again. So I'm gonna leave for at least a month. Coming back when free agency almost starts.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikel816 View Post
    I don't love Jerry Jones. I think he's been an okay GM. The 3 superbowls that came early in his tenure have spoiled cowboys fans. Some teams haven't seen one let alone 3. If he's the reason for loses than is he the reason for wins? As far as facts I've stated plenty of facts that you've chosen to omit. Jimmy Johnson wanting to trade Irvin before trading Walker, you denying any involvement from Jerry in the trade. the Manderich over Aikman thing. Which u rebuked by saying I wanted a burger but had a salad instead. The only way that applies to Jerry picking Aikman when Jimmy wanted Manderich is if you wanted a burger but your boss told you to have a salad.

    I could point out picks like Witten or Ware. I could point out signings like Deion. All I'm saying is give credit as often as u give hate. This forum has turned into a bash Jerry Jones and Tony Romo party. And as far as facts go why is it a fact that Jerry Jones is the worst GM of all time as you say. That's your opinion as is most arguments sports related.
    This is the last response you get from me. You started this argument by accusing me of something and twisting my words.

    1. The SB that happened in the early 90's began 20 years ago. I'm sure a good portion of the posters were young or too young to remember the details. It hasn't spoiled everyone if it happened 2 decades ago.

    2. The reason for the wins? Here again is where you aren't paying attention to detail. When Jones bought the Cowboys in 89 he had zero professional football knowledge. He needed to foot the massive 180+M bill so he brought in people he knew could run the organization. He needed to look smart. Remind you Jerry is an ego maniac. Does he get credit for hiring the right coach? Yes. Does he get credit for building the team? No. So Jerry get's credit for finding the coach that built the team. Use your theory: Doesn't Jimmy Johnson get credit for the wins, since you blame him for the losses when he was in Miami.

    Don't you see your double standard way of thinking? You apply your theories where you want to and avoid the opposite thus making your stance look flawed and bias.

    3. Did you see how long my post was. I wasn't going to address each word you typed when during this entire conversation you avoided everything i said. Irvin couldn't stay healthy and wasn't that fast. i think he ran a 4.5. Of course he was going to be considered for a trade. He didn't begin to flourish until Jay, Troy, and Emmit came into the mix. You think it was Jones who stopped the trade when it was Johnson.

    4. Phil wanted to trade Kobe, but didn't. We all want to do things, but don't. Just because you want to doesn't = failure.

    5. You talk about bashing Jerry and Romo yet for you to emphasize Jones you have to criticize Johnson. Again the double standard.

    6. When have i denied any involvement? I said Johnson called Minny. Again not paying attention to details.

    7. Again you're not posting any evidence about Jones wanting Aikman. Here's what i found:

    “As I heard it, (General Manager) Tex Schramm wanted Mandarich and Jimmy Johnson, who had just come aboard as coach along with (owner) Jerry Jones, wanted Aikman. Jimmy wound up getting his way and the rest is history.” Of course, it only adds to the story that while Aikman won three Super Bowls and is now a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Mandarich played seven nondescript seasons and is better remembered for his connection to steroids. Also, Jones fired Schramm later that year and has served as GM ever since.
    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/theda...ryan-decision/

    I'm sure you will avoid this as well. Regardless of who wanted who, Tony Mandarich was a stud and there wasn't any way people could know he was going to turn out like he did. Regardless of that hindsight the Cowboys still got Aikman under both Jones and Johnson, so if you're going to give credit to Jones for being the owner you have to give credit to Johnson. If you can't understand that Jimmy Johnson was the one in charge of on the field decisions then you clearly ignore all the facts that have been presented.

    Not to forget the Cowboys needed both an offensive lineman and a QB. The debate was who was going to block for the QB. The same thing happened in Miami with Long. Tony was a can't miss pick, while there were many questions about Troy's inabilities. No one knew what was going to happen with Mandarich, yet you use hindsight and inaccuracies to blame Johnson.

    Ironically you seem to worship the ground Jerry walks on, yet when i give you a quote from 1989, right from his mouth about what control Johnson had you ignore it all together and continue to preach Jones is the architect.

    8. You don't know me so don't tell me what i should or shouldn't do. You haven't read my posts and you clearly don't know what i have or haven't said. You don't want to play the pendulum game of good decisions vs poor decisions, nor will i waste my time because you avoid anything that deals with criticism of jones.

    9. Another example of not paying attention to the details. The world of professional sports doesn't think Jones is good at his job. 2-7 in the last 17 years. That's a fact. I'm in the minority when it comes to Romo and if you think this forum is so bad, then no one's stopping you from leaving.

    10. You can't post you're little fact sheet without evidence. The difference between your posts and mine is when i start saying "facts" i use resources to prove it. You just call it a fact.

    Now in closing, I'm done with this conversation because you unable to debate. You avoid facts, quotes, resources, and logic. You state facts without evidence, make claims, use double standards, cherry pick, fallacies, and destroy any chance at a legit conversation. Like i said before if you have something valid to add then let me know, but until then i'm not going to waste another second of my time. The proof is out there, people already know it, i have no reason to defend it.

    Hold onto Jones and the imaginary idea that he's not the problem and the rest of the sports world will hold onto the truth. It's fans who continue to drink the Jones Koolaid that allow this team to be mediocre and ruin it for the rest of un-blinded people who remember what it is was like when Jones wasn't here and or not involved.
    Last edited by thedon01; 01-22-2013 at 09:22 AM.

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romo2Austin View Post
    Honestly, both of you guys have a very good point. But every thread is only talking about Jerry Jones. This is just like last year... And its happening again. So I'm gonna leave for at least a month. Coming back when free agency almost starts.
    please explain what points he has? His whole argument is Jerry Jones was the one making the decisions when the cowboys won in the 90's, Johnson was not the one in charge of on the field decisions and Jones isn't the problem moving forward. Aren't you one of the people that believe Jones needs out?

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  6. #321
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    You want a few things you could blame Johnson for, of course only using hindsight.

    1. Blame him for spending his supplemental pick on Walsh when he had Aikman, thus missing out on taking Seau in 90.

    2. In the 1989 draft Johnson drafted Wisniewski whom he traded to the Raiders for the 39th, 68th, and 119th pick if i remember correctly. We took Moose with the 39th, Wheston and Crockett with the other two. Moose is credited for being the guy the NFL created the FB position for. Wheston and Crockett did nothing while Wisniewski went on to 8 Pro Bowls.

    So on one hand Johnson missed out on a 8 time pro bowl guard (assuming he'd have the same success in Dallas) for a stretch pick on a RB who helped lay the framework for one of if not the greatest RB's of all time. Either way the decision which was very controversial at the time worked out for the best.

    3. There were reports in the 1990 nfl draft that Johnson wanted to move up to get James Francis because we missed on Seau whom we could have used our supplemental draft pick on, but ended up taking Smith at 17. What a disaster this could have been. Green Bay could have had Emmitt.

    4. We had Jimmy Smith for a time too, but was injured, had an emergency appendectomy leading to an infection, and missed the entire 1993 season. We released him, but he later became a 5 time pro bowler in Jacksonville. Do we fault Jimmy for that?

    Since Jones has the final say according to Mikel, then everyhing i showed and everything he bashed Johnson for he should also be faulted Jerry with, but instead chooses to employ a double standard where he sees fit.

    Bottom line is someone wants to argue that the owner is the one who should get the credit because he has the final decision then with that theory you destroy Jerry Jones. If every decision has his approval then when you fault Johnson you have to fault Jones. After Johnson left Jones has been 2-7 over the last 17 years.

    So Mikel's theory actually cripples Jones.
    Last edited by thedon01; 01-22-2013 at 10:00 AM.

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  7. #322
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  8. #323
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    Also jerry jones has confirmed Bill Callahan will be calling plays, and jimmy robinson will not be coaching the wr's, and also they spoke with Mike Tice about a position.

  9. #324
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    Again, comparing coaches from different sports is apples to oranges. Again talking about the players that could've been drafted is something you could only know If you have a crystal ball. If the cowboys drafted this guy here then this guy would've went here. If they didnt trade this guy they would've drafted this guy. You don't know who they would've drafted or how it would've affected further drafts. That argument is pointless. And there is no way to call it fact it's your opinion. Again I don't worship the ground Jerry walks on but those superbowls don't happen without Jerry and Jimmy but, after Jimmy left, Dallas won a Super Bowl did Jimmy?

    As far as your rant about not posting links to support facts, I've done the research, I've read about it. If you want to do the research feel free but you will find that anything I said was fact is. And it's not hard to find.

    As far as Jerry and Jimmy I believe it was a 50/50 effort and I do give Jimmy credit. But if you remember Jerry said he could win a Super Bowl with 20 different coaches. And then hired Switzer and won a Super Bowl. Jimmy's career was nothing after Dallas.

  10. #325
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    again when you want to offer something with some validity, please feel free to let me know. I'm not going to waste my time picking apart your statements, showing the double standards and fallacies, or trying to explain theories and logic.

    You've made this conversation pointless, believe what you will, still doesn't change what most people already know.
    Last edited by thedon01; 01-22-2013 at 03:03 PM.

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  11. #326
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    The argument boils down to this. You hate Jerry Jones. I think he's done and adequate job. You love Jimmy Johnson I think he was overhyped. Also when having a sports argument with differing opinions, completely dismissing people's points is childish. I addressed you arguments and even conceded in some areas while you put your head down like a stubborn child and bullied forward spewing long rants about things you have no way of knowing like what would've happened if Dallas drafted -insert player here- or comparing Scottie Pippens career after Chicago to Jimmy Johnson's after Dallas. How they relate considering one is a basketball player the other is a football coach is beyond me. Also your idea of bringing in Matt Millen who is prolly the worst GM of all time just because it would mean that Jerry had to relinquish his power is ridiculous. That point alone ruins your credibility.

  12. #327
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    i'm not going to fall into your trap of baiting and insults. if you want to have an adult conversation and not try to make a name for yourself by attacking then again please let me know when you have something of validity to offer. i'd be glad to listen. you've misunderstood everything and fail to see the logic in anything thus no conversation can exist. This was your choice not mine. The posters in here who know me know exactly what i'm saying. you clearly haven't been around long enough to understand me.

    if you can't see the logic and theory applied in my statements i can't nor won't educate you on this. don't put words into my mouth about who i like or dislike, and you obviously don't understand the theories presented. you were the one who used johnsons failures in miami as a way to show his inability in dallas. i used examples of the same theory in every sport to prove that your statements are inaccurate. again you can't grasp this.

    To do the rest of the psd a favor i will refrain from fighting with you until
    A. you choose to offer something of validity
    B. you learn how to converse properly
    C. you apologize for accusations, assumptions, and twisting of my words.

    Until those things are accomplish this conversation is finished. Good day to you.
    Last edited by thedon01; 01-22-2013 at 05:24 PM.

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

  13. #328
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    Don't know what u mean by making a name I thought this was a forum to present opinions and debate topics. I didnt know people came here to " make a name for themselves" I wasn't insulting you I was attacking your arguments. Don't take things so personal. I'm sure we agree on many things. This is just one we don't but referring to your opinions as facts and calling the facts I present opinions is what makes this a waste of time. I look forward to reading your opinions on other topics and possibly agreeing.

  14. #329
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    don & mike....you have now successfully taken over a thread regarding Marinelli with the Jerry Jones - Jimmy Johnson debate

    ...while it is stimulating reading, you are making me want to close this thread...

    ...if you decide to continue the conversation, please stop personalizing it...debate away, but please stop the personal stuff.....thanx, Fred appreciates it!

  15. #330
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    Here's your first response to me.
    For all the bad personnel moves JJ had made he's mad a lot more good ones. But you seem like the guy that still thinks Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells were actually buying the groceries.
    Two things to point out:
    1. The first sentence is an opinion. If you feel that is a fact then offer some actual evidence.
    2. The second sentence is your attempt at discrediting something that has been well documented.

    Both of these are examples of how not to have a debate.

    Your next statement:
    These aren't just big name coaches they're are proven coaches. And the type of guys that aren't just jockeying for a head coaching job.
    Exactly how are they proven, because according to your train of thought on Jimmy Johnson Kiffin should have been able to have the same success everywhere, including college since college is part of "everywhere"?

    And Another
    Jimmy wanted Tony Manderich over Aikman
    1. I asked you a few times to show me a source to back this up or it's an opinion.
    2. Even if it was true and i can't find any sources on it, what does it matter what he wanted. in 1989 Jerry was a virgin to professional football. He had no clue about anything. Jerry never intervened and overruled.
    3. I offered you a documented source showing that it was actually Tex who wanted Mandarich and Jimmy wanted Troy.
    4. The debate at the time was based on who could block for Troy or any QB for that matter and Mandarich was a sure pick.
    5. You made reference in others posts that it's impossible to know what would have happened had Dallas did something else. - This i agree i've stated this mindset before. But using this theory you can't say Troy would have excelled outside of Dallas and Mandarich would have failed in Dallas, so using what you said how can you fault Jimmy Johnson? It's impossible without employing a double standard which would make your point irrelevant.

    Don't forget this one
    Anybody that throws Matt Millens name out as being the GM obviously doesn't know football. Jerry Jones is a better GM than Millen hands down.
    1. You failed to understand the logic behind that while others who have discussed with me in the past grasped it easily.
    2. You attempted to discredit me to prove your point. When trying to emphasize Jones you discredit Johnson. There's a trend happening.

    I gave you quotes right from Jerry Jones himself and you never even addressed them. Jerry said Jimmy was the CEO of the Dallas Cowboys. What responsiblities and or duties does a CEO maintain?

    1. A chief executive officer (CEO) is the highest-ranking corporate officer (executive) or administrator in charge of total management of an organization
    2. Typically, the CEO/MD has responsibilities as a director, decision maker, leader, manager and executor

    Jerry also said that no player was brought into the organization without both agreeing which implies that Jimmy Johnson had to agree with Jerry and Jerry had to agree with Jimmy. This of course is accepted if you believe every word Jerry Jones says.

    After Jimmy made public statements about his contract Jerry Jones never refuted anything Jimmy said directly.

    You claim to have addressed everything i said, but refused these very important details.

    When i post articles, quotes, theories, definitions, public opinions, new paper clippings, statements, records, these things all pertain to the word "fact". Everything you have posted was an opinion because you had nothing to back it up with.

    As to things being personal, you don't get to assume, twist words, insult, discredit, accuse, and diminish myself and then tell me not to take things personal. What gives you the right to act this way then try to direct how i should accept what you say? You should really learn how to communicate if you want to have discussions.

    "
    No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"

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