Buccaneers hire John Garrett
^ Good they can have him
I heard Jimmy Johnson's interview and also read the article on the cowboys site where it's pointed out that Jerry Jones was labeled as owner and GM in all team guides well before Jimmy got there. And also if you don't think Jerry had final say on all personnel then you've been under a rock. Jimmy wanted Tony Manderich over Aikman. Parcells wanted to take Spears with the first 1st rd pick that year which would have meant that ware would be on another team cuz he wouldve been picked before their 2nd first rd pick. Oh and how did Jimmy Johnson do as the GM in Miami?
Anybody that throws Matt Millens name out as being the GM obviously doesn't know football. Jerry Jones is a better GM than Millen hands down.
2. You're using "Media Guides" from an ESPN article to argue Jerry Jones was the architect. Seriously? Did you forget the tidbit about the Hershel Walker trade that Jimmy performed that led to Emmitt and Woodson among others?
3. You're ignoring the facts, just look it up. Anyone who was alive back then knew Johnson was brought it because Jones had no idea what he was doing.
4. Everyone wanted Tony Manderich, but Dallas took Aikman so what does it matter. I wanted a cheeseburger this afternoon, but had a salad instead. So what?
5. We took Ware and Spears in the first round, get your facts straight, it's only making your argument look less valid. I don't care if Parcells wanted Spears over Ware because it ended up with both.
6. Do you really want to go down the path about Jimmy Johnson in Miami? How did Favre do in Minny? Jordan in Washington? Rice in Oakland? Emmitt in Arizona? Shaq in Cleveland? Montana in KC? So because none of these people produced the same results elsewhere that discredits their previous success? Seriously? Think a little deeper before you argue that theory because it's already been discussed.
7. It's been widely publicized over the years that Jimmy Johnson was the brains and Jerry was the finances. If you have a situation where Jerry writes the checks (of course he does), but doesn't know who to write the checks to, hence why he hired a football guy (Johnson) and Johnson brings the names to the desk of Jones and says "this is who i want", Jerry signs on the dotted line. Yet you're giving credit to Jones. Smart way of thinking.
8. You need to wake up and realize who's who in this organization. You can try to twist facts and ignore history all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. check the record of Jerry Jones since 1996. His overall GM record is worse than you'd think. I documented in another thread.
2. You're obviously trying to make a name for yourself by attacking everything i say.
3. If you'd think before you speak you'd clearly see that the Matt Millen post was about "theory". If Jerry hires a GM, regardless of who it is, albeit the worst (Matt Millen) then it's an indication that Jerry is stepping back.
I suggest that if these type of conversations are over your head you should refrain from commentating because i don't appreciate someone who's trying to bait me into an argument. If you'd like to have a civil conversation feel free to do so, but if you can't then don't expect any sort of acknowledgement from me.
Last edited by thedon01; 01-21-2013 at 04:16 PM.
"No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/hea...erry-jones.eceIRVING — Jimmy Johnson said he wasn’t interested in creating controversy, but he wanted to set the record straight Wednesday about his role with the Cowboys in the years he coached the team.
“The time I was with the team, I had complete and total responsibility over the football operation,” Johnson said in a telephone interview from his home in the Florida Keys. “That meant personnel, the draft, coaches, including the strength coach. Everything.
“It was always in my contract.”
Johnson was reacting to comments owner Jerry Jones made in the wake of the Cowboys’ loss to the Atlanta Falcons. Jones said he ran the Cowboys’ football operation from the day he bought the team in 1989 and would continue to do so.
“When I bought the team, the night I bought it, I said I would be doing what I’m doing and that’s GM the team and making the final decisions on personnel,” Jones said late Sunday night. “That’s the way it’s always been done. We’ve won three Super Bowls doing it that way, so I’m going to do it again.”
Johnson, who coached two of those three Super Bowl teams, and has been widely credited for assembling the talent that twice beat the Buffalo Bills and the team that went on to win a third against the Pittsburgh Steelers under Barry Switzer, agreed that Jones held the title of “general manager” but…
“When we signed that first contract Jerry said, ‘I’ll be in charge of the finances, you’ll be in charge of the football,’ we’ll make history,” Johnson said.
Jones responded in a statement Wednesday night.
“I came into the NFL as the owner and general manager of this team, and one of the first decisions I made in the role of GM was to hire Jimmy as head coach,” Jones said.
“Jimmy and I worked well together. We had great communication, and I have always appreciated what he has done for the organization. I wanted all the input in the world from Jimmy on personnel.
“During Jimmy’s tenure, the authority to hire the players was with the GM. But it was agreed that we wouldn’t bring a player into the organization that he didn’t approve of. We were a team and it worked very well. In our unique circumstances, where the owner and the GM were the same person, in the case of a disagreement — which we never had — the owner had the ultimate authority.”
Jones and Johnson arrived in 1989. The Cowboys won Super Bowls after the 1992, 1993 and 1995 seasons.
“Jerry was trying to pay for the Cowboys those first three or four years,” Johnson said. “That’s the way it was.”
Jones did not respond to an interview request Wednesday.
In a May 21, 1989 Dallas Morning News story detailing Johnson’s authority with the Cowboys, Jones was quoted saying, “Jimmy is coach and chief executive officer of the Dallas Cowboys. Jimmy has the capacity to run major corporations, so he can certainly handle the Cowboys. It’s a unique situation, but he has unique abilities.”
But Johnson said Jones wanted more credit when he realized the business end of the Cowboys was not quite as glamorous as the day-to-day football operation.
“In the third or fourth year, Jerry said, ‘I want to be part of this. Nobody cares how much money I make, they want to know about a second-string guard,’“ Johnson said.
Johnson said when the Cowboys traded with Atlanta for defensive tackle Tony Casillas in training camp before the 1991 season, he was surprised to hear Jones taking credit. Johnson said when he told Jones about the trade, the owner was not familiar with Casillas, who had played at the University of Oklahoma and been the second pick of the 1986 draft.
“I was steamed,” Johnson said.
Johnson said when he negotiated subsequent contracts with Jones, the Cowboys owner was “always very adamant” that clauses detailing Johnson’s control be removed.
“It was always a sticking point with Jerry,” Johnson said. “I would never agree.”
1. When Jerry bought the team he knew nothing about running football. Read the quote Jerry said about being in charge of the finances and Jimmy being in charge of football. - Jerry said it
2. Jerry needed to pay for the Cowboys, hence why he allowed Jimmy to run the Cowboys. If I could the find the contract i'd post it. Jimmy made the trades and did the drafting it can't be refuted.
3. Jerry is in love with his ego. Hence why after 3-4 years he wasn't getting the spotlight and Jimmy found his way out and it's been pathetic every since. Jerry's ego can't be refuted.
4. The owner signs the contracts, but the coach decided who was going to get those contracts. not 1 player would become a Cowboy without Jimmy's Approval.
- Jerry Jones on Jimmy JohnsonJimmy is the coach and chief executive officer of the Dallas Cowboys
- Jerry Jones on Jimmy Johnsonit was agreed that we wouldn’t bring a player into the organization that he didn’t approve of
The more you try to argue this the more your stance is shredded with facts.
Last edited by thedon01; 01-21-2013 at 04:36 PM.
"No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"
Here's a 1989 newspaper article stating the job duties of Jimmy Johnson.
"No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"
1. Jimmy Johnson was set to trade Hershal to cleveland when Jerry Jones told him to hold off and take other offers and to build a buzz which led to the offer from Minneasota.
2. Jimmy Johnson was set to trade Irvin to Oakland before he even attempted the Walker trade but Al Davis contacted Jerry and said "who's your QB gonna throw the ball to" prompting a call to cleveland and offering Walker.
3. If it were up to Parcells Dallas would've takin spears first which would most like have meant no Ware. But Jerry was adamant about taking Ware first allowing Dallas to land both.
4. Comparing aging athletes to aging coaches is assinine. A player rarely gets better with age.
5. If everyone wanted Manderich and Jerry wanted Aikman I guess that's a point for Jerry.
6. I understand your sarcasm in reference to Millen but if Millen is the worst GM ever than what sense would it make to bring him in if he's not better than Jerry. Millen would make this team horrific thus validating to Jerry that he should be the GM and that an outside GM can't be trusted.
7. You're highly underestimating Jimmy Johnson's massive ego.
8. As far as Kiffin, bringing up his college performance is pointless. USC had massive sanctions, the teams roster was depleted and as we have all learned college success or failure doesn't always translate to the NFL. But do you know what does translate in the NFL? It's continued success in the NFL.
9. I guess Jimmy Johnson was still the brains when Switzer took them to the Super Bowl. But you'll say that he did it with Jimmies players.
10. Bottom line Jerry Jones isn't signing checks for any player he didn't approve of or want or get himself.
1. Do you really want to get into this debate? If you really want to then i'll show you even more facts than i already have, but you have to accept them as just that. If you're going to refute truths then save yourself the time.
2. The Browns offered Dallas the best offer at the time (3 1st round draft picks and 3 2nd round draft picks, plus a player). I'm sure most of your statements are generated from simple sources such as Wikipedia so I'll use the same site to prove this point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_tradeJohnson stated, "[The Browns] offered us a player, a couple of future number one draft picks and three number two draft picks." The Cowboys felt this was a favorable offer, but they also felt that if another team were to enter the discussion, then they could generate a bidding war and thereby get even more compensation. Jimmy Johnson and team owner Jerry Jones decided to contact other clubs to generate buzz and create leverage. Johnson contacted Minnesota Vikings General Manager Mike Lynn. Johnson told Lynn that he was going to trade Walker to Cleveland that afternoon, and that if Minnesota would like to trade for Walker, then it would cost them "players, draft picks, conditional picks, and provisions", giving Lynn a deadline of 6:30 p.m. Lynn, feeling Walker was the missing piece to a Super Bowl run, faxed Johnson that he was interested, and soon after negotiations ensued. In order to get Walker to agree to a trade, the Cowboys paid him a $1.25 million "exit bonus"
Hitzges, Norm; St. Angelo, Ron. Greatest Team Ever: The Dallas Cowboys Dynasty of the 1990s. Nashville, Tennessee: Rutledge Hill Press. pp. 25–26. ISBN 1-4016-0340-8.
2A. You give credit to Jones, yet it was Johnson who contacted Minnesota. I think you're confusing the JJ's.
3. We're talking about Jimmy Johnson, why are you pettifogging the debate with Parcells? Stay on topic.
4. And a coach get's better with age? Comparing a coaches success to his age is also asinine. Again you fail to understand logic. You can't judge a coach because he didn't duplicate his success somewhere else.
4A. Does Parcells' non championship runs in Dallas mean he's a bad coach? Does it eliminate his success in NY?
4B. How about Dan Reeves? He couldn't duplicate his success in Denver, Atlanta, or NY. Does that lessen his success in Dallas?
4C. Mike Holgrem couldn't get it done outside of GB, but he's regarded as one of the best coaches so obviously his failures elsewhere don't diminish his success.
4D. Dick Vermeil couldn't duplicate success in KC, but that doesn't overshadow his success in St. Louis.
4E. Pippen was 32 when he was traded to Houston, but couldn't get it done again and he had Barkley and Hakeem. Does that failure erase his success?
4F. Johnny Damon won in NY at a late age then couldn't find that same success in Tampa. Should those shortcomings discredit his success in NY?
4G. Joe Torre couldn't replicate his success in LA, but he's one of the greatest coaches.
4H. Wilt was 36 when he won in LA, Damon was 34 when he won in NY, Jeter was 34, Matsui was 34, Elway was 38, etc etc etc. Do i really need to go on?
4I. You're measuring Jimmy Johnson's ability based on whether or not he could duplicate that same success in a different franchise. So using your theory Jimmy Johnson was not the architect because he couldn't create a dynasty of 3 SB championships in 4 years and produce the same echelon of players. How many coaches in not just football, but sports in general have done that? I can only think of one and he may be the greatest coach of all time, Phil Jackson, but how many Phil Jackson's are there? And just because every coach isn't Phil doesn't mean they aren't great coaches.
I stopped at the letter I, do i really need to go on with examples? But lets use your theory under the assumption that Jerry was the architect for a moment. If Jerry was the one who made the trades, drafted the players, etc he hasn't produced the same results in 17 years. So even if you want to assume Jones was the brains then with your theory that you so graciously use to build him up you also tear him down.
5. Let me play along here with Mandarich. So because every team liked Tony that makes every team a failure? Let's go ahead and give Jones credit, even though you haven't shown any evidence to support it. Remind you Mandarich was taken ahead of Barry Sanders, Andre Risen, Derick Thomas, Deon Sanders, ERic Metcalf and many others.
5A. Let me drop a few names to you, David LaFleur was an attempt by Jones to replace Jay, Shante Carver, Ebenezer Ekuban, Bobby Carpenter, Felix was a failed attempt to duplicate McFadden and I've posted on this before. He passed on Rice, Charles, Johnson, and Forte.
5B. We traded 2 first round picks to get Joey Galloway in another failed attempt by Jerry Jones to duplicate Michael Irvin. We missed out on Shaun Alexander and others in 2000. in 2001 we missed out on Dree Brees, Reggie Wayne, Todd Heap, Casey Hampton, Steve Hutchinson, Vanden Bosh, Chad Johnson, Crumpler, Kris Jenkins, Matt Light, shall i go on? All because your fearless leader thought he could find the next Irvin in a Galloway trade that cost 2 first round picks. Now imagine this.
5C. Had Dallas not traded said picks away they would have been able to get Shaun Alexander in 2000, traded back in 2001 and pick up Dree Brees and used the 55th pick they spent on Carter to get Steve Smith. We would have had Dree Brees (QB), Steve Smith (WR), Shaun Alexander (RB), not to mention that trading a top 10 pick in 2001 would have yielded at least a middle to late 1st round pick as well, thus allowing us the opportunity to get one of Vanden Bosh, Hutchinson, Todd Heap, Chad Johnson, Reggie Wayne. I wonder how that would have looked.
5D. The infamous Roy Williams trade lost us the opportunity to use our 2009 draft pick on a potential Clay Matthews. We also missed out on Mike Wallace. Thank your leader again.
5E. Goodrich???, Julius Jones??, Kavika Pittman - Jerry traded back to get him?????
I don't need to go on.
6. Again your nitpicking and pettifogging. If you understood the logic then you wouldn't be asking the question. Bringing in a GM, regardless of who it is, is a sign that Jerry is stepping back. It would eventually snowball into someone doing the job better.
7. Again pettifogging, who's talking about Johnson's ego and what relevance does it have to the discussion?
8. USC was ranked #1 when the season began. Pay attention. Again everything you keep arguing is flawed. I've come to the conclusion that you're just trying to argue to argue.
9. I'll say it? Again where have you been since 1995. Everyone says it.
10. Yes Jerry approved the signings, but he didn't pick the players. Why is this stuff so hard for so many.
You want another Bottom Line???? - Your buddy Jerry is 2-7 in the playoffs since 1995-96. The Raiders have a better post season record.
You can argue all you want about whether or not you believe Jones built the dynasties, but the proof is in the pudding. He's 2-7 over the last 17 years.
"No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"
In the draft, the Cowboys, with their first 3 picks, should go OL, OL, OL.
1. We weren't talking about Jimmy Johnson this was originally about Jerry Jones as a GM.
2. The reason why I keep bringing up Parcells is because Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells were considered to be the guys buying to groceries. But IMO Jerry was right there making the list.
3. You can't compare coaches of different sports or players to coaches. Apples and oranges. Also if a coach isn't a fluke they should still be successful with other teams especially if they are hand choosing the players. And by successful I mean consistently competitive.
4. I'm not giving credit to Jerry for the walker trade but let's not act like he wasnt involved. And like I said before the player Jimmy wanted to trade was Irvin.
5. I also never said Jerry was the brains but I do believe he is the deciding factor on all personnel decisions. Honestly the brains of any organization are the scouting staff.
6. Your argument about players drafted or not drafted because of trades is moot. Nobody knows who would have or wouldn't have been picked before or after. Who would've traded up or down. So that debate is pointless for both of us.
7. All we can debate is who was drafted. And since you called Manderich the guy everybody wanted does that give Jerry a pass for picking players everybody wanted and having them be a bust?
8. For every player you pointed out that didnt live up to expectations there are players that did. There were late round gems and undrafted players that turned out to be pro bowl players. But again that credit really tends to go to the scouting staff and not so much the coaches or GM.
9. If we were having this argument in the late 90's I'd be right there with the idea of hiring a GM but u feel that Jerry has become a solid drafting GM and evaluator of free agents.
10. Me bringing up Jimmy Johnson's ego was response to you bringing up Jerry Jones ego.
11. The Cowboys are 2-7 in the playoffs not Jerry. The coaching had been bad in Dallas for years. My problem is not with Jerry or the players he puts on the field it's with the coaching.
P.S. GM is not a position on the field he doesn't lose games no one single player does, not even Romo as I hear so often. The team loses and the team wins. And this team had been mediocre because of mediocre coaching.
I meant I in #9 not u.
You don't understand the concept of cherry picking, pettifogging, fallacious thought patterns and still continue to speak in generalizations all while twisting and turning facts. You refuse to apply the same logic to the negative side of Jones. How can this remotely resemble a discussion?
I've pointed out facts, you pointed out opinions. Every single statement is based on everything i just mentioned so why even continue this debate? My argument isn't moot about anything, you refuse to look at logic and facts. You apply them where you want and negate them when they prove you wrong.
You can love Jerry Jones all you want hence why things in this organization aren't changing. You're entitled to "believe" what you want, but when you come into a forum and begin to accuse me of something while avoiding facts and asserting generalizations as truths i will call you out on it.
People know i try to keep a level head and keep things fair, so when you have some actual evidence to support the claim let me know. I'll be the first to acknowledge the facts even if they aren't what i want them to be. Even if i don't agree i will always acknowledge when people have points.
The problem is after all the facts i've shown you've avoided them which shows me you only want to argue not converse. I've wasted my time talking about this subject, so when you have something valid please let me know.
Last edited by thedon01; 01-21-2013 at 09:30 PM.
"No Idea Why Ines Sainz Was Her assed"