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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Why are people still arguing over WAR?

    Here's my opinion on WAR;

    This past season Darwin Barney had a higher WAR than Josh Hamilton and several other great star players that had great seasons.

    That = WAR sucks
    Offensive WAR is great, it's actually measurable. It's defensive metrics that suck and people forgive their subjectiveness WAY too much.
    Last edited by KingPosey; 01-18-2013 at 05:37 AM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Why are people still arguing over WAR?

    Here's my opinion on WAR;

    This past season Darwin Barney had a higher WAR than Josh Hamilton and several other great star players that had great seasons.

    That = WAR sucks
    Well seeing how Hamilton only does one thing....hit, and Barney is an excellent defensive second basemen....it has it's merits. WAR can possibly help you realize that a player is over rated or under rated. It isn't there to reaffirm your assumption that a player is great or bad.

    Hamilton Net Runs - 101.7
    Barney Net Runs - 84.7

    rWAR
    Hamilton - 3.4
    Barney - 4.6

    fWAR
    Hamilton - 4.4
    Barney - 2.5

    WARP
    Hamilton - 3.9
    Barney - 1.8

    VORP
    Hamilton - 38.4
    Barney - 5.8

    So you gotta use more than just one metric, otherwise you are going to think the stat sucks because of preconceived notions.


    Hamilton is really bad defensively in centerfield. So bad that it zaps the positional value that he gains by playing center. He should be in left or DHing.

    Barney is the best defensive second basemen in the game. He saved 25 runs by himself this season. That's a ton of runs for an individual to save at any position. Much less a position equal to that of a centerfielder.

    Their values come closer because while Hamilton was able to create over 100 runs offensively this season, he was a -11 runs defensively in center. Meaning he was well below average defensively for his position.

    Barney only created 54 runs offensively. But his defense helps raise his value significantly. Plus he's the better base runner.

    Hamilton is better, you can't just use one WAR stat and think that's all the stat does. If you use it as a be-all, end-all you'll never have enough information. It needs to be used as a snap shot only.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by iam brett favre View Post
    Yeah you guys are right, it does make sense that WAR is the way it is.
    But, and this is just me, it takes a bit of value away from it. They should do a seperate stat..wins above actual replacement player lol.

    Then it wouldn't be an individual stat.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    WAR can possibly help you realize that a player is over rated or under rated. It isn't there to reaffirm your assumption that a player is great or bad.
    That's a good point and more people should look at it that way.

  5. #110
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    Here's my take.

    1. He's not on roids and never was
    2. There is a rumor he's older than he actually is.
    3. He's 33 right now and that's when traditionally noticeable decline begins to show itself in ball players.
    4. Technically speaking ball players peak between 26-29
    5. Visual acuity and perception starts to decline after 29 which coincidentally is when players start declining
    6. He's never been a workout warrior, but he didn't used to be soft. Look at Pujols at age 25. He had no belly. Now, quite honestly he looks too soft for a pro athlete. I know it's baseball, but still being in shape can't hurt.
    7. Could be multiple down seasons (for him), but I think it's mostly age.

  6. #111
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    Pujols has always taken care of his body, idk what you're talking about

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Why are people still arguing over WAR?

    Here's my opinion on WAR;

    This past season Darwin Barney had a higher WAR than Josh Hamilton and several other great star players that had great seasons.

    That = WAR sucks
    So you don't like Baseball Reference's WAR then. Fangraphs has Hamilton at 4.4 and Barney at 2.5.

    Shailene Woodley

  8. #113
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    Did people not pay attention after May?

    FWIW, Bill James, who I usually think is a huge low-baller on his projections, has him at a 398 wOBA this year, which would be his best since 10, by a significant margin.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
    If you think Pujols was never using anything then you're lost. And if you think Pujols was in his prime around 27-29 or 30 then you're really lost. ROFL
    Although, I agree that Pujols was probably on something at some point in his career (arrived when they were in mass use around the league). There is still no proof. Although, Lance Armstrong showed the passing of tests can be done(he passed 250). The key is is you stuff that is not even known about or tested for. I think Armstrong was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to get tbe stuff. It is not too far fetched that ped's are still in wide use.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by WOwolfOL View Post
    Did people not pay attention after May?

    FWIW, Bill James, who I usually think is a huge low-baller on his projections, has him at a 398 wOBA this year, which would be his best since 10, by a significant margin.
    Spot on Pujs killed the ball for most of the season. The slow start is what stuck with people. But he was on a tear for most of the season after that. He sported and ops over 1000 for 3 straight months. He played hurt for almost all of September otherwise his totals would look even better. He's far from finished and .285/.346/.516 is nothing to scoff
    At even for Albert
    Angels:
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    OSU Beavers (Baseball):

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by fresh prince View Post
    Spot on Pujs killed the ball for most of the season. The slow start is what stuck with people. But he was on a tear for most of the season after that. He sported and ops over 1000 for 3 straight months. He played hurt for almost all of September otherwise his totals would look even better. He's far from finished and .285/.346/.516 is nothing to scoff
    At even for Albert
    "For Albert" that is something to scoff at.

    For mortals, that's awesome.

    And then. He made them pancakes.

  12. #117
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    He's still top ten, and while he lists at 32 isnt it possible that he is a few years older? alotta players born in the dominican have done this to boost there stock and get themselves on mlb teams radars. Anyways he will be considered an all time great when all is said and done,He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by iam brett favre View Post
    Which makes it ****ing dumber than it should be.
    I don't understand something and I refuse to put any effort into learning it = it's stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Why are people still arguing over WAR?

    Here's my opinion on WAR;

    This past season Darwin Barney had a higher WAR than Josh Hamilton and several other great star players that had great seasons.

    That = WAR sucks
    Darwin Barney: 2.5 fWAR
    Josh Hamilton: 4.4 fWAR


  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeekTheTruth View Post
    He's still top ten, and while he lists at 32 isnt it possible that he is a few years older? alotta players born in the dominican have done this to boost there stock and get themselves on mlb teams radars. Anyways he will be considered an all time great when all is said and done,He is the only player in major league history to bat at least .300 with 30 or more home runs and 100 or more runs batted in in his first 10 seasons.
    I think he was talented enough at a young age where he really didn't need to lie and get into the league. He could have probably hit MLB pitching when he was 16 years old. Hell, he should have lied and said he was older than he actually was to get into the league earlier.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fly View Post
    I don't understand something and I refuse to put any effort into learning it = it's stupid.



    Darwin Barney: 2.5 fWAR
    Josh Hamilton: 4.4 fWAR



    I think he was referencing rWAR.

    Hamilton's rWAR was 3.4 whereas Barney's was 4.6.

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