Arizona Enforcement

[AmsterNat]

What you're referring to is more of a cultural phenomenon than any kind of racial discrimination in the classic sense of the word

Please explain this statement to me. Sorry i don't follow.

Only because I've been asked - again, no intent to hijack the topic to anywhere else.

In the old days, the concepts of 'racism' and 'discrimination' generally applied to blacks, certainly in the US (though of course, native Americans have also been treated pretty appallingly throughout history). Europe historically saw very different racism. Jews in particular were persecuted and discriminated against in many parts of Europe going back centuries. The Nazis then included groups like gypsies and gays to the list of those persecuted.

But it wasn't till after WW2 that Europe saw any significant numbers of blacks, many of whom emigrated to their respective 'mother countries' after the collapse of overseas empire and the independence of former colonies. People looked askance at blacks because they were new and different, but there was never anything like the institutional discrimination of the southern US.

During the last half of the 20th century, these black and brown people from ex-colonies were increasingly assimilated - they spoke the language, they inter married with local women, and in time became totally accepted.

At the same time, Muslim emigration to western Europe started expanding quite dramatically, with large numbers of mainly Turks and Moroccans settling in Germany, Holland and Belgium. In time, certain sectors of the indigenous population started resenting these particular newcomers because most did not speak the local language, and many wouldn't even try to learn it. There has been relatively very little inter marriage between Muslim immigrants and locals, certainly by comparison with the previous wave of immigrants. There has also been 'ghetto-forming', i.e. these immigrants stayed largely in their own areas and showed far less desire to integrate and assimilate than the previous wave of mainly black and brown immigrants post WW2.

So, the issues western Europe has now have nothing to do with color, and also not so much with religion itself, but with the fact that many Turks and Moroccans choose not to integrate, and that pisses off some locals. That's what I mean by this isn't racial discrimination in the classic sense. Also, I have deliberately painted with a wide brush and kept to generalizations. Of course, the issues are far more complex than I have briefly indicated.

It is also true that the locals (some of whom may even be black and brown!) who really have issues with Muslim immigrants represent a very small proportion of the population as a whole.

[stephkyle7]

I lived in Germany for 8 years.They are far more accepting in western Europe then in the US, Flea is flat wrong. I dont know how long he stayed for , but in the course of my time theire I had to travel extensively throughout Italy,spain,France,greece,austria,England,germany, turkey, so I can tell you from a significant time frame of experience that they are not less tolerant then The US.

secondly racism is geographically concentric.
In MS. throughout the south, the pan handle, and large portions of Texas as well as the North western states like Idaho, montana, you will find intense discrimination of every sort.

specifically regarding AZ, Northern AZ is really nice, flagstaff and the sourronding "green area" the rest of the state is worthless...the desert is Beautiful?(lol) ok,Yeah I guess if youve been eating out of a trashcan your whole life a Big Mac is delicious.

racial profiling has been going on forever, all this law did was stop police from having to lie to do what they were doing already. Look into what is known as DA rejected cases.

thousands a year get thrown out before araignment becasue police are breaking the laws routinely.
that means a person gets arrested, spend 24-72 hours in jail and then is released.

The ideas we have an Immigration problem in this country is perpetrated by ignorant and hateful people who prey on the weak minded to sell an ideas that makes them money, Illegals donot have access to most social safety net programs and spend the money they make in our economy.

about the most costly "drain" comes from free education in public schools, and most who take advantage of that "freebie" wind up becoming naturalized and paying taxes by the time they are work age.

AZ is a backwater nothing of a place ,it only exists because people who could cut it in CA needed somewhere to go.
I hope they continue on the road they are on,that idiot of a Governor they have is making them into a laughing stock.

[Sota4Ever]

CALIFORNIA!!!

[flea]

I don't generally read this stephkyle guy's posts and I only read 2 paragraphs of this one, but to call Germany more tolerant of the US is just stupid. I question whether you actually lived there, or just on a base. Additionally, the culprits in the US seem to be only southern states, which I doubt you've spent any real time in (you probably haven't even been to MS).

Either way I'm not going to argue about something like this. It's not surprising that someone like you would impute all the perceived ills of the nation on your own "Other" in the south and nothing anyone says will change your mind. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this highly subjective topic.

[stephkyle7]

I couldnt careless what you believe, Your insites here have been flawed quite consitiently.
I lived off base for 6 years outside of Frankfort.I arrived in GE in the mid 80s.Rein Main AB was adjacent to Frankfort International airport, it has since been closed.As a Aircrew member I had to fly on TDY almost every week.
So there is my 8 years living in Western Europe and your what?.....little of nothing.
Like most of the kids in here you want to discuss thing you have no knowledge of as if you are experienced and your lack of experience shows quite easily.

I was also stationed in Biloxi MS. ,Keesler AFB, it is directly adjacent to a big Seabee base, and about 100 miles outside of New Orleans.

No one was trying to argue with you, You expressed an opinion that I didnt agree with, based on 8 years of direct contact with European culture. as a matter of fact,most europeans dislike americans more then anything else becasue they act as though they own the world.

You seem to simply have gotten your feelings hurt,and now want to lash out.

How Ive placed all the ills of the nation anywhere is a completely overblown and childish assertion.
I grew up in CA. and Never heard the N word until I was in HS.

I lived in MS. for two years and Texas for another 4 and heard whites saying it like they were saying good morning to each other.
The demographic for the states I mentioned are easily researched, while there are many Blacks in the south,AZ,Idaho,Montana, are nearly homogenous for a reason.

So while its not surprising that someone like me, whom you have such an indepth understanding of might have the unmitigated gall to refute a claim you have made,It is surprising to me at least, why you would make claims from a perspective as limited as yours seems to be.

[flea]

Heh okay man, I'm the one that's mad on the internet.

[Patsfan56]

exactly why I will never set foot in Vegas. I'd check each of those boxes.

[AmsterNat]

...but to call Germany more tolerant of the US is just stupid.

I think you mean "than" the US rather than "of" the US. I'm afraid that I also have to disappoint you. I have also lived in Germany, and in Austria, and in the UK, and in Holland. Stephkyle is absolutely correct about Germany, and you are absolutely wrong to call his view 'stupid'.

[ewing]

Only because I've been asked - again, no intent to hijack the topic to anywhere else.

In the old days, the concepts of 'racism' and 'discrimination' generally applied to blacks, certainly in the US (though of course, native Americans have also been treated pretty appallingly throughout history). Europe historically saw very different racism. Jews in particular were persecuted and discriminated against in many parts of Europe going back centuries. The Nazis then included groups like gypsies and gays to the list of those persecuted.

But it wasn't till after WW2 that Europe saw any significant numbers of blacks, many of whom emigrated to their respective 'mother countries' after the collapse of overseas empire and the independence of former colonies. People looked askance at blacks because they were new and different, but there was never anything like the institutional discrimination of the southern US.

During the last half of the 20th century, these black and brown people from ex-colonies were increasingly assimilated - they spoke the language, they inter married with local women, and in time became totally accepted.

At the same time, Muslim emigration to western Europe started expanding quite dramatically, with large numbers of mainly Turks and Moroccans settling in Germany, Holland and Belgium. In time, certain sectors of the indigenous population started resenting these particular newcomers because most did not speak the local language, and many wouldn't even try to learn it. There has been relatively very little inter marriage between Muslim immigrants and locals, certainly by comparison with the previous wave of immigrants. There has also been 'ghetto-forming', i.e. these immigrants stayed largely in their own areas and showed far less desire to integrate and assimilate than the previous wave of mainly black and brown immigrants post WW2.

So, the issues western Europe has now have nothing to do with color, and also not so much with religion itself, but with the fact that many Turks and Moroccans choose not to integrate, and that pisses off some locals. That's what I mean by this isn't racial discrimination in the classic sense. Also, I have deliberately painted with a wide brush and kept to generalizations. Of course, the issues are far more complex than I have briefly indicated.

It is also true that the locals (some of whom may even be black and brown!) who really have issues with Muslim immigrants represent a very small proportion of the population as a whole.

This is the exact reason given by bigots to justify discrimination against Mexicans.

[stephkyle7]

But Ewing, while Im sure that there are many who will use any excuse to discriminate, dont you feel that part of assimilation into a culture is accepting some of their norms?

personally,Ive fealt that by coming to an English speaking ,predominately christian culture,that the least someone can do is show a certain amount of deference to the established culture.
I realize America is a Haven for all,but at the same time, as I had said earlier, why Americans get a bad rap around the world is becasue we act like Bulls in a China shop where ever we go.
Its pretty easy to pick an American out overseas.

When you see us as they do, its pretty embarrassing.


My mother is Latina,but Ill also tell you there are Neighborhoods In LA, even factories and warehouses that if you dont speak spanish ,they wont hire you because everyone else does,and many dont speak english, thats a problem in my opinion, and it has nothing to do with ethnicity or skin color.

[flea]

I think you mean "than" the US rather than "of" the US. I'm afraid that I also have to disappoint you. I have also lived in Germany, and in Austria, and in the UK, and in Holland. Stephkyle is absolutely correct about Germany, and you are absolutely wrong to call his view 'stupid'.

Well I've been all over Germany and witnessed firsthand the hatred that most white Germans feel for the large Turkish population. I was also traveling with some black people and they got some of the most disgusting treatment I've overtly seen in my lifetime by waitresses, bartenders, etc. But enough with the anecdotes, why don't we use evidence?

It's probably not good when your nation has a giant Wikipedia article on how intolerant you are of a particular religion. Or you know, really weird stuff like this. Maybe you could have seen this in America 100 years ago but not today.

I really question whether either of you ever stepped off a military base in these nations. There is much more racial unrest in western Europe than in America and the people don't just sit around writing the n-word on the internet - they go out in the street and scream about it. And I'll go ahead and note the obvious irony in someone believing that f***ing Germany (you know, once the Aryan Nation destination) is more tolerant than America - the nation of the world's unwashed and unloved immigrants.

[ewing]

But Ewing, while Im sure that there are many who will use any excuse to discriminate, dont you feel that part of assimilation into a culture is accepting some of their norms?

personally,Ive fealt that by coming to an English speaking ,predominately christian culture,that the least someone can do is show a certain amount of deference to the established culture.
I realize America is a Haven for all,but at the same time, as I had said earlier, why Americans get a bad rap around the world is becasue we act like Bulls in a China shop where ever we go.
Its pretty easy to pick an American out overseas.

When you see us as they do, its pretty embarrassing.


My mother is Latina,but Ill also tell you there are Neighborhoods In LA, even factories and warehouses that if you dont speak spanish ,they wont hire you because everyone else does,and many dont speak english, thats a problem in my opinion, and it has nothing to do with ethnicity or skin color.

Of course. I was not saying that their reasoning is sound its hateful. I just fail to see this difference b/t American and European bigotry. Its discrimination and there is always excuses and stereotypes to justify it. How Americans act overseas and the perception we invite is whole other conversation

[AmsterNat]

This is the exact reason given by bigots to justify discrimination against Mexicans.

I was not, and am not, justifying any kind of discrimination. I was doing my best to explain the situation for you as I see it and understand it. No more, no less.

[stephkyle7]

As Amsternat noted, most of the sentiment i heard from German citizens was directed at cultural assimilation, not heritage or ethnicity.Yes Turks have it rough, but as we both have said that is more about importing a foreign language and religion.

Most countries in the world are nearly homogenous.The idea of Multiculturalism is nearly unique to America.
That doesnt make the population Racist or discriminiatory.

When you visit someones home and they ask you to remove your shoes, do you tell them "no,I dont have to,thats not how I roll?"
That is the issue.
I cant imagine where you went or who you encountered, but I again can tell you I travelled extensively throughout europe.I lived in the economy in Germany for YEARS. I went to East Berlin before the wall fell, I went to Munchen(which is Munich to americans) for Oktoberfest 5 times. I visited the Stuttgart where The ferrari symbol of the prancing pony came from(the coat of arms of the city) Porsche and BMW have huge showrooms there.
I went to the various castles dozens of times, most notablely hiedleburg,becasue it was the closest.
I went to the Bad durkheim appfel wine festival 6 times,my favorite bar was the Golden Krone in Darmstadt

here:
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...h2p9HB6lckrivw

I visited Kaiserstrasse too many times, and enjoyed the Bierhause and even went to the "american" parts of sachsenhausen.

Please dont presume to tell me about Germany.

there is a difference between being offended by poor house guests and hating people becasue of their skin color.

The arian nation was 70 years ago, and most germans are ashamed of their countries history, something I would think you should know if you were there for even a couple of months.
I went to more carnivals,fests,Volksmarches,then I can remember.

Now,in comparison,as ive said Im a very fair skined half anglo/half hispanic person.Most people assume Im "white" which according to the consensus would be acurate(did you know that middle easterns are considered white as well?)
But the point is ,becasue people expect me to find no offense in their behaviour I have heard "whites" throw out racial epitetes in this country like they are yawning on a monday morning.I had a district manager a couple of years back, after I relayed a story about a problem I had in an inner city, tell me that the upcoming holiday was N-word day(with a big smile).

I know that I am generalizing and in particular people in large population centers tend to be more tolerant regardless of race, but I know first hand that racism is very deep in this country and in addition there are many white americans who vote against their own best interests becasue the Republican party tells them you are with us or you are with those---------.

that is a fact.

[flea]

Oh okay, when other nations are racist it's just their identity and we're being poor house guests when we call them on it. When America is racist it's the fault of backwards people from the American South. Understood.