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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManRamForPrez24 View Post
    That's exactly what I was saying at the time, and it seems that the credit to the defense and Thibs is now becoming unavoidable. They are both tremendous, and potentially more valuable to that team (the defense certainly is) than any one player. But Thibs and "Chicago's defense" can't win MVPs.

    Rose had one of the weaker individual seasons any MVP has ever had. Does that make him an overrated winner? I don't think so. It just is what it is.

    He wasn't the best player in the NBA, and he wasn't close. But he was the most invaluable player to the team with the greatest turnaround. For that reason, knowing how convoluted the MVP criteria can be, he was deserving in the end. I argued for Howard and LeBron all year, both of whom were better players, but treating the MVP award like the team-contingent award it is, Rose winning it ultimately became 100% fine with me. The Magic never quite got it going, and the Heat were a relative disappointment in many people's eye's.

    Deserving winner; one of the 5 weakest individual MVP seasons.
    I agree that it's pretty hard to come up with an argument where someone is undeserving of the MVP award that they won, but I can come up with some alternative candidates who I could easily argue a great case as to being more deserving of the award.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I have no idea if it is or isn't I would have to do more work than at a glance look at whatever numbers your implying but feel free to elaborate on what your talking about because Im completely lost now.


    Then your not following me, its not about him being the MVP or not, we are already acknowledging the fact that he won the award, this is about stacking up his credentials vs LEAGUE HISTORY. Not just who he faced in winning the award, but almost exclusively how he fares vs OTHER MVP WINNERS.



    I know this is off topic but the team was the same but the reason for them winning was DRASTICALLY different. Their DEFENSE improved leaps and bounds more than their offense did, its why Thibs was COY. I dont see how that makes Rose the best case for MVP but I admit he was a worthy candidate overall, just like every other MVP winner was a worthy candidate. So telling me how worthy he was of the award does absolutely NOTHING to distinguish him in this type of questioning. EVERY MVP WINNER WAS WORTHY. So what else do you have going in your favor

    Always wondered what your obsession with Rose has been? Did the PSD forum Bulls fan over homerness really turn you that bitter towards him cause as usual you just come off as someone who loathes and any sort of success he accomplished.

    Just a observation I made. As soon as this threat popped up I knew instantly you would be in here prob. down talking him. This isn't an attack at you but, I just always wondered what your obsession with him was. I mean are you mad at how much credit he got and how little the defensive turn around and Thibs got? The kid (I say that cause he was that young) had an amazing season and was the Bulls leader night in and out on the offensive side of things which everyone should admit wasn't nothing to glamour about outside of Rose and the occasional nights from other players. There were a ton of games we don't win without him and the late game heroics just really stick out.

    I mean if you are looking for statically backing then of course there were guys who had better seasons but, I mean attributes and contribution wise he put up an MVP season IMHO.

  3. #63
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    Rose was just in the right place at the right time. He was lucky to have gotten bailed out by his team's great defense, which helped create for him easy fast break points. People forget that Rose was chucking up 3 pointers and taking unbalanced shots that were detrimental to the team's success. He was very inefficient throughout his MVP season as well as overall career. Rose is the epitome of a street baller who sometimes tries to divert from what is his natural talent. By the end of his career, Rose will be shrouded by the shadows of Allen Iverson.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Federal Reserve View Post
    Rose was just in the right place at the right time. He was lucky to have gotten bailed out by his team's great defense, which helped create for him easy fast break points. People forget that Rose was chucking up 3 pointers and taking unbalanced shots that were detrimental to the team's success. He was very inefficient throughout his MVP season as well as overall career. Rose is the epitome of a street baller who sometimes tries to divert from what is his natural talent. By the end of his career, Rose will be shrouded by the shadows of Allen Iverson.
    Pretty much everything in this post is not only wrong but, makes me shiver at the amount of hate spewing out of the keys you tap away at.

    Yes he was totally a down fall of that team. Stick to something else you actually know something about....whatever the hell that may be.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    Always wondered what your obsession with Rose has been? Did the PSD forum Bulls fan over homerness really turn you that bitter towards him cause as usual you just come off as someone who loathes and any sort of success he accomplished.
    What makes you think Im obsessed with Rose?

    Just a observation I made. As soon as this threat popped up I knew instantly you would be in here prob. down talking him. This isn't an attack at you but, I just always wondered what your obsession with him was.
    You know my personal stance on him, why would you expect anything different in a thread revolving around the topic of his MVP credentials? Isnt that the definition of insanity? And I posted in this thread because I saw people were casually dismissing the premise of this thread with logical fallacies.


    I mean are you mad at how much credit he got and how little the defensive turn around and Thibs got? The kid (I say that cause he was that young) had an amazing season and was the Bulls leader night in and out on the offensive side of things which everyone should admit wasn't nothing to glamour about outside of Rose and the occasional nights from other players. There were a ton of games we don't win without him and the late game heroics just really stick out.
    Mad isnt the right word but if thats what helps move this conversation forward then yes. And I wouldn't say it was Thibs necessarily, I do think he should get however much credit a coach deserves, Im just saying the reasons for the Bulls turn around were clear. Im sure you lose alot more games without Rose, but again, these are all strawman arguments that nobody ever denied.

    I mean if you are looking for statically backing then of course there were guys who had better seasons but, I mean attributes and contribution wise he put up an MVP season IMHO.
    Dear god man why is it so hard for people to understand the scope of my argument? EVERY MVP WINNER IN THE HISTORY OF TIME HAS PUT UP AN MVP SEASON.

    What difference does it make?


  6. #66
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    Completely.

    Born a Knick Live a Knick Die a Knick
    Knicks-Jets-Yanks-Chris Paul-St.Johns-Duke Fan

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    This article has some great points. Rose was the best offensive player on a team that was the 15th best in that category. The Bulls defense that year was the main reason for their vast improvement (1st in points allowed per possession), and they were proven to be better in that category when Rose was on the bench. Thibs was the most responsible for the Bulls drastic improvement...not Rose. Sorry Bulls fans.



    http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/spo...his-point.html
    So please tell me, how was the Bulls offense without Rose in the game? What about the other side of the coin?

    The fact that their defense improved without him isn't surprising at all, Watson was one of the better defending PGs in the league. That said, Mike James looked like Steve Nash compared to Watson when it came to running an offense. Watson didn't know how to distribute the ball well or create for others, so with a stagnant offense with Rose on the bench, the least the team could do is focus a little more on defense to make up for it.

    ALSO, our second line was BETTER defensively than our first line statistically speaking, especially when you take into account that they were facing back-ups most of the time. And even if they weren't facing back-ups, Asik/Taj/Brewer/Korver/Watson was arguably (and probably) a better defensive group than Noah/Boozer/Deng/Bogans/Rose. So the fact that our defense improved with both team's back-ups out there, with Rose on the bench, says much much more about our second unit's defensive capabilities than it does about Rose's.


    To those who claim that Thibbs was more of an influence than Rose, I will argue that they were both extremely vital to the #1 seed, and without either there is no way they were a top 4 seed in the East.

    Take Thibbs away and we were still top ten in defense with our personnel (Noah, Taj, Asik, Deng, Brewer, Watson, Bogans anyone?). Take Rose away and we're easily one of the ten worse offenses in the league if not one of the five worse (we were 15th with him). The Bulls had to learn to adjust to Rose's absence over the past three seasons, and at first it was really ugly, anybody who followed the Bulls that season will attest to this. And don't forget that Noah and Boozer weren't at the offensive levels they are today due in large part to a lack of rhythm with their frequent injuries.

    The Lebron argument for MVP that season is sour when you compare what he had to work with with what Rose had. Rose didn't have the second best player in the league (at the time) to work with. Rose didn't even have a Bosh level player to work with. Take Lebron away and they were still a top 4 seed no doubt. Meanwhile the only player Bull's opponents' defenses had to worry about was Rose. The way the Bulls consistently won in the regular season was: keep the game close the first three quarters with great defense, then let Rose turn it on in the fourth to solidify the lead. Outside of Korver or Deng hitting an outside shot, Rose completely carried that offense in the clutch. Boozer wasn't even in the game the last ten minutes if it were close.
    Quote Originally Posted by SwatTeam View Post
    If Lebron can stretch out his arm from half court and dunk on a buzzer beater to beat the monSTARS and save planet Earth from annihilation and forced slavery with Bill Murray and Newman from Seinfeld as his teammates, then he will be considered the GOAT.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by northsider View Post
    Pretty much everything in this post is not only wrong but, makes me shiver at the amount of hate spewing out of the keys you tap away at.

    Yes he was totally a down fall of that team. Stick to something else you actually know something about....whatever the hell that may be.
    I dont see any similarities to what he and I said about Rose. So why are we both hating on him?

    What he said was appalling on any level (scientific/emotional), both what can be quantified and what cant be measured are in disagreement with him.

    To me that is the definition of Hate.


    Yet you classify us the same. ... Time to get a new buzz word


  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiddy012 View Post
    So please tell me, how was the Bulls offense without Rose in the game? What about the other side of the coin?

    The fact that their defense improved without him isn't surprising at all, Watson was one of the better defending PGs in the league. That said, Mike James looked like Steve Nash compared to Watson when it came to running an offense. Watson didn't know how to distribute the ball well or create for others, so with a stagnant offense with Rose on the bench, the least the team could do is focus a little more on defense to make up for it.

    ALSO, our second line was BETTER defensively than our first line statistically speaking, especially when you take into account that they were facing back-ups most of the time. And even if they weren't facing back-ups, Asik/Taj/Brewer/Korver/Watson was arguably (and probably) a better defensive group than Noah/Boozer/Deng/Bogans/Rose. So the fact that our defense improved with both team's back-ups out there, with Rose on the bench, says much much more about our second unit's defensive capabilities than it does about Rose's.
    All true, but it still speaks to your teams support level for Rose. He would sit and the team could play at an +.500 level. Its why I dont have CP3 as my MVP like most people seem to want.

    Take Thibbs away and we were still top ten in defense with our personnel (Noah, Taj, Asik, Deng, Brewer, Watson, Bogans anyone?). Take Rose away and we're easily one of the ten worse offenses in the league if not one of the five worse (we were 15th with him). The Bulls had to learn to adjust to Rose's absence over the past three seasons, and at first it was really ugly, anybody who followed the Bulls that season will attest to this. And don't forget that Noah and Boozer weren't at the offensive levels they are today due in large part to a lack of rhythm with their frequent injuries.
    If the overall sentiment is that OVERALL roster talent matters more than anything then we agree. Just not on the precise reasons why


  10. #70
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    IMO kobe's mvp over CP3 is the most overrated mvp ever. cp3 had a legendary season. he definitely deserved it. from a statistical standpoint, was rose's mvp overrated? sure, but i wouldnt say it is the worst mvp.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by el hidalgo View Post
    IMO kobe's mvp over CP3 is the most overrated mvp ever. cp3 had a legendary season. he definitely deserved it. from a statistical standpoint, was rose's mvp overrated? sure, but i wouldnt say it is the worst mvp.
    In terms of his own competition for the award, I would have given it to KG.


  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I dont see any similarities to what he and I said about Rose. So why are we both hating on him?

    What he said was appalling on any level (scientific/emotional), both what can be quantified and what cant be measured are in disagreement with him.

    To me that is the definition of Hate.


    Yet you classify us the same. ... Time to get a new buzz word
    You're right you are both completely different in what you were saying however just over time even when it wasn't the Rose/MVP discussion I felt like you always like to take shots at him. I could be wrong but, I always got that impression from you that you just really didn't like him and understandably so cause Bulls fans can make that quite hard.

    I could be wrong but, I am just telling you the impression I always got from you on here. I also understand that people are getting the premise of the thread wrong however I think you are also giving the OP far to much credit as I think his intentions are far different then what you are chalking his question up too.

  13. #73
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    The Bulls did not find success until Tom Thibodeau became the coach.

    This year without Rose they are still one of the best teams in the east. They do not have a higher seed because at times they cannot score and that is where Rose came in and also they lost some key pieces to their bench which is what won them a lot of games last year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Max.This View Post
    Brooklyn isn't smoking noone's *** besides the line at the medicare office
    Sig bet with FriedTofuz or whatever his name is (I'm on my phone so it's too tedious to go find his exact name) that if the Nets lose to the Raptors I will delete my account and if the Raptors lose he will delete his (lol Raptors fans are so cute).

  14. #74
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    yes, it was one of the weaker MVP seasons, but that is also due to circumstances. LeBron had just pissed off the world, Wade just got a sidekick, the other MVP contenders weren't as good of a story, which many times, is what the MVP is all about. I do think the Nash MVP's, and Iverson MVP were also weak years, and there are a couple back in the day that are suspect, but I wouldn't cry over Rose getting it. He had a great year, his team had the best record, and the world hated the best player on the planet.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  15. #75
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    this is a bait thread.


    #Game6 #Toews #Champs #StanleybackinChicago #Hawks




    #WIN #BEATDAHEAT


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