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  1. #76
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    But we have been building the way you want: You want to build through the draft by losing.

    We have a second overall pick in Evan.
    The FIRST overall pick with Kwame.
    Then you have a couple 10th picks (Bynum and Hawes), a fifth (JRich), 12th (Thad), and two more mid-teen picks.

    Now get out there and win!

  2. #77
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    Those are all false equivalncies and the fact that ur using that as an example is pathetic and shows how far u will reach to make an half assed argument.

    If i was on a comp and not as work id have a much longer/better explained rebuttle...


    gotta pay the troll toll

  3. #78
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    lol nice try

    RETURN OF THE MAC

    Rec: 8 Yards: 142 TD: 2

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    But we have been building the way you want: You want to build through the draft by losing.

    We have a second overall pick in Evan.
    The FIRST overall pick with Kwame.
    Then you have a couple 10th picks (Bynum and Hawes), a fifth (JRich), 12th (Thad), and two more mid-teen picks.

    Now get out there and win!
    lol...


    2012 allstar

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    Those are all false equivalncies and the fact that ur using that as an example is pathetic and shows how far u will reach to make an half assed argument.

    If i was on a comp and not as work id have a much longer/better explained rebuttle...
    Take your time and rebut.

    You have pretty high draft picks, do you not?

    Evan is what you had been waiting for. You got him.

    Now show me you can win with him.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2-ONE-5 View Post
    lol nice try
    Not my fault if his 'system for winning' isn't getting it done.

  7. #82
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    Will respond appropriately at 11 pacific time.

    In the mean time, i ask all the other common-sense people put there to respond. Lol


    gotta pay the troll toll

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    But we have been building the way you want: You want to build through the draft by losing.

    We have a second overall pick in Evan.
    The FIRST overall pick with Kwame.
    Then you have a couple 10th picks (Bynum and Hawes), a fifth (JRich), 12th (Thad), and two more mid-teen picks.

    Now get out there and win!
    First things first, i cant believe this is your argument... U cant possibly be this dense/stupid/ignorant to common sense/oblivious to the core concept of what those of us who have been clammoring for a rebuild have actuLly been saying.

    Also, bringing up the draft status's of guys who are outside of their actual rookie contracts and have been in the league for a while is flat out stupid.... Who cares where jrich and kwame were drafted over a decade ago? Jrich is an average role player and kwame os just a bad player.... This is who they are and who they were when we aquired them.

    Hawes, as well, was what he was when we aquired him.

    Thad, as the 12th pick, nothing was expected of him, and they made a mistake overpaying/resigning him.... But lets visit this for a second.... Had the sixers not tried to fight for a playoff spot that year and traded andre miller they could have been in a position to draft noah, or even horford.... Or GULP, kevin durant.

    As for turner, this is the one year where the sixers got put into a great spot.... They made a mistake and should have drafted favors. But really there was no franchise changing plAyer in this draft.

    U cant keep judging based on draft position... Especially 3 yeRs into his career, it just isnt relevent anymore. You are literally the only person still judging him based on being the 2nd pick.

    The sixers, post AI have always elected to a oid cap space and draft picks to fight to stay mediocre.... So saying that my plan hasnt worked is flat out ignorant and smug of you since my plan has never been close to being put into action by the sixers organization.

    In reality, the sixers have typically gone YOUR route, which got them nowhere. Attempting to make trades to make incremental improvements from mediocrity. Making trades that hurt the future of the cap, etc.

    The exception was this summer with the bynum trade, but we hVe yet to reep the benifits of that.

    Now, things are/should be looking up now that they have bynum, but we wont know any of that until bynum is on the floor and playing the batman and robin game with holiday.... Then we will have a better idea of where this team is moving forward, and what moves and roster decisions need to be made to make this team a contender.


    gotta pay the troll toll

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    First things first, i cant believe this is your argument... U cant possibly be this dense/stupid/ignorant to common sense/oblivious to the core concept of what those of us who have been clammoring for a rebuild have actuLly been saying.
    Hahaha. I can tell you were STEWING for two hours until you became able to reply. Holy moly...that was strong out of the gate!


    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    Also, bringing up the draft status's of guys who are outside of their actual rookie contracts and have been in the league for a while is flat out stupid....
    Yeah, well, I knew you'd have SOME argument against it. Since it flies in the face of your whole theory. The point stands: you want to get good by sucking. In the hopes that we'll hit the lottery in the, well, lottery.

    But see what you get????? Players like Kwame. Busts like Turner. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE'LL FAIR ANY DIFFERENTLY???


    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    U cant keep judging based on draft position... Especially 3 yeRs into his career, it just isnt relevent anymore. You are literally the only person still judging him based on being the 2nd pick.
    That's true. But I believe I'm the only one because everyone else doesn't WANT to remember that fact. They harken back to his Great Days at Ohio State (!). His CYO championship. (!) The time he beat his older brother at H.O.R.S.E. (!)

    Why would they bring up draft position?



    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    In reality, the sixers have typically gone YOUR route, which got them nowhere.
    Is that true? Free agency? Can you list the superstars we signed via free agency since AI left? Use the reverse side if the list is too long.

  10. #85
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    [QUOTE=RickyPrior;25105508]Hahaha. I can tell you were STEWING for two hours until you became able to reply. Holy moly...that was strong out of the gate!




    Yeah, well, I knew you'd have SOME argument against it. Since it flies in the face of your whole theory. The point stands: you want to get good by sucking. In the hopes that we'll hit the lottery in the, well, lottery.

    But see what you get????? Players like Kwame. Busts like Turner. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK WE'LL FAIR ANY DIFFERENTLY???




    That's true. But I believe I'm the only one because everyone else doesn't WANT to remember that fact. They harken back to his Great Days at Ohio State (!). His CYO championship. (!) The time he beat his older brother at H.O.R.S.E. (!)
    Why would they bring up draft position?


    show me a quote where ANYONE said this ever? see i can do it too.

    i'll wait...

    RETURN OF THE MAC

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BChydro86 View Post
    bholly, just a quick question about lous FTs..... i dont know how/where to look up all the stats u do.

    do u have any idea how much of lous FT attempts were from getting into the lane vs. pump fakes/getting guys to jump? just curious.
    I've wished for a long time for those stats, but no, I don't know how to get them. Sorry man.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    Uhhhhh, no.

    Lou makes us better.

    (Go back and read that 10 times in a row. I can't say it any clearer...and this is the 50th time.)
    Right, I got it - what I was getting at was that it makes us better but still not good, and that's not what most of us want.


    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    But everyone else is wrong. They HAVEN'T built "a really good team", have they.

    I'd like to get better NOW. Get me Lou. Get me Cousins. And take that bust ET off my hands.


    Wala
    I don't think anyone argues with getting Cousins. And it's 'voila'. 'Wala' isn't a word.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2-ONE-5 View Post

    show me a quote where ANYONE said this ever? see i can do it too.

    i'll wait...
    Ah, yes, you can do it too...I can see that.

    Unfortunately for you, you just don't do it as well.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    But we have been building the way you want: You want to build through the draft by losing.

    We have a second overall pick in Evan.
    The FIRST overall pick with Kwame.
    Then you have a couple 10th picks (Bynum and Hawes), a fifth (JRich), 12th (Thad), and two more mid-teen picks.

    Now get out there and win!
    You're being deliberately obtuse to work people up. It would be nice if once in a while you could have a conversation with someone without completely repositioning their point of view to something it's not. You know, use your basketball knowledge instead of just going full ****** and seeing what happens. Argue with what people are actually saying, not your cartoonish knock-off that you create because you actually have something to say about it. Most of the rest of us give you that respect, be a grown up and give it back.

    If you can point out when we blew things up to rebuild properly, rather than just trotting out the same team, trying to make the playoffs, and accidentally ending up mediocre and in a low draft position, then I'd love to see it. It hasn't happened. We lucked out the year we jumped in the draft, and beyond that we've been in the middle of the pack.

    The plan for rebuilding during the draft is about being bad enough to get high picks until you draft a superstar and then building around them. Nobody has ever advocated stockpiling 10th or 12th picks or getting old guys who were 5th picks 15 years ago, so it's ridiculous to say that doing that is akin to trying their plan. Those things are no part of, and are completely irrelevant to, that plan.
    Neither is saying 'well, Evan was a #2 pick, I guess we have to build around him', by the way. Nobody gives a **** about the number of the pick, they care about the quality of the player, and it just so happens that the superstars generally come towards the top - so the plan is to get to the top of the draft until you get a superstar. It isn't about just getting a #x or #y pick, it's about getting a particular quality of player. Just listing the pick numbers we've had and saying 'see! you did what you wanted!' shows a fundamental misunderstanding of that particular plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyPrior View Post
    Is that true? Free agency? Can you list the superstars we signed via free agency since AI left? Use the reverse side if the list is too long.
    I'm sort of confused by this - you're saying your plan would be to develop via free agency? Correct me if that isn't what you're saying. That's a surprise to me - I'm not sure I've ever seen you advocating clearing cap room or talking about guys we could sign who'd get us there. It always seems to be about incremental growth with second or third tier guys.

    Not being able to list the superstars we signed doesn't necessarily mean we haven't tried free agency - I could just as easily say 'Wait! You think we've tried the draft? List the superstars we've drafted then!'. It's stupid. Trying something and succeeding at it by getting superstars aren't the same thing.
    We tried free agency this past summer after amnestying Brand, and all we got were scraps, and we tried it with Brand because we were willing to overpay him more than anyone else, and it didn't work out. We're just not a particularly attractive destination for free agents, so it seems like scraps and overpaying are the only ways we're going to get them (as you say, when was the last time we signed a superstar?) - and that doesn't build a championship team.
    Free agency works some times for some teams, but it's not like it's a surefire plan in a way the draft isn't.

    Both the draft and free agency have their downsides. In free agency the best players are only available 7 or 8 years into their career, they can choose where they go, and the cap places a huge restriction on how much you can use it. With the draft there's a huge amount of luck involved.
    In free agency we have a distinct disadvantage, because we aren't a particularly attractive destination. We don't have any such disadvantage with the lottery, because it's all luck.

    With BOTH you have to sacrifice in the short run to do both well - for free agency you have to restrict and clear salary, and for the draft you have to restrict wins (aka suck).

    The problem is that we've done a half assed amount of both, never really committing to either - we've signed middle-of-the-class, dime-a-dozen guys, and one disappointing overpaid over-the-hill star in free agency, and we've made middle-of-the-first-round, dime-a-dozen picks and one disappointing #2 pick. It's not like we've taken multiple big shots in either direction. We've haven't properly tried either approach.

    And those last two paragraphs bring us to where I think you seem to most misunderstand the view of the rebuilding advocates, and to where the problem is in your approach. BOTH approaches require you to be worse in the short-run - either by restricting salary or by sucking. Neither are really congruent with the 'win now' approach that you seem to always be advocating. Trying to win now over the last few years is the reason we've been unable to try either free agency or the draft - because we haven't had the cap room for free agents, and we haven't been bad enough for the draft.

    In short, you're drawing the wrong line between your approach and those advocating rebuilding. It isn't a disagreement between drafting vs free agency, it's a disagreement between win-now incremental growth and forget-now rebuilding.
    The rebuilding advocates are all for free agency. They're always talking about freeing cap room as part of rebuilding - both because not paying high salaries mean you'll suck more (and draft higher), and because it gives the opportunity to sign a superstar if one comes along, and the flexibility to build around one if you draft one. They aren't advocating the draft alone, they're advocating blowing the whole team up (ie clearing salary) and rebuilding from near-scratch. It isn't the draft or free agency, it's putting yourself in the position to get a superstar through whichever of those channels brings one first, and then having the flexibility to build around them.
    The win-now approach isn't really congruent with a true free agency approach, at least as far as I can see. Winning now costs money (eg the extra $5m per year it would've cost to keep Lou), and just a few incremental improvements like that prevents you from signing a superstar. People don't object to it because they hate winning (newsflash: we all want to win, you aren't alone on that), it's that winning now prevents us from getting a superstar and thus prevents us from real winning (ie contending) in the future. If there was a way to win now and still have the cap room and prospects to sign a superstar then people would be all over it, but there isn't.

    It isn't draft vs free agency. It's rebuilding through draft and free agency by clearing out and focusing on a superstar first vs trying to win every year and getting a little better at a time with the minimal cap room and bad draft picks that inevitably leaves you with.
    Last edited by bholly; 01-15-2013 at 05:44 PM.

  14. #89
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    You're being deliberately obtuse to work people up. It would be nice if once in a while you could have a conversation with someone without completely repositioning their point of view to something it's not. You know, use your basketball knowledge instead of just going full ****** and seeing what happens. Argue with what people are actually saying, not your cartoonish knock-off that you create because you actually have something to say about it. Most of the rest of us give you that respect, be a grown up and give it back.
    I want to say this every time he speaks. Thank you bholly!

  15. #90
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    wow.. bholly... u just said exactly what i was about to say and u said it 100x more eloquently than i ever woud/could have.

    ill add this though just for a fun example:

    who would u rather be over the last decade.... the sixers or the clippers? the sixers stuck around the middle of the pack, never really being better than mediocre, and 1 year they were bad enough to luck into the 2nd pick which didnt amount to much.

    the clippers spent most of the last decade stumbling around the lottery, not signing the right free agents, really only drafting 1 guy with any value (eric gordon)... then they hit the lotto hard and got blake griffin, traded their value guy for chris paul, and now theyre title contenders.


    gotta pay the troll toll

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