[QUOTE=LeoYankee;25047467]He's clearly stating that there is no reason they can't win with $189m....still the highest by far in our league.
There is a major reason why they can't win with $189m... our player development stinks. We've brought one true star position player (Cano) up through our system since Derek Jeter in the mid-90's. And zero star pitchers up since Andy Pettitte in the same period.
The only reason. The absolute number one only effing reason that we are competitive the last decade is our financial advantage.
Teams like Tampa and Oakland have to be smart as heck, and willing to lock up stars to early extensions, in order to stay competitive. And neither of those teams are regular play-off participants.
Not one team in baseball has had the run of success we've had since the mid 90's. Not one.
Plus, if you take away the idiotic A-Rod albatross of a contract, we are below the 189. I know A-Rod was finally great in the '09 post season. Although, I felt it was Hideki and Damon who won that series for us.
But that A-Rod contract added 270 million to the price of that '09 championship.
When he purchased the team in the early 70's it was a mess but was on the mend. The team had watched it's aging dynasty get old in the late 60's ; Basically 1964 was the last year they were any good (AL Champs). The team did not restock well, the only competitive year was 1970 when a guy named Thurman Munson would burst on the scene, the Yankees would be mediocre the next few years. In the year before George took over, Yankees would trade for Sparky Lyle and Nettles (came right before George bought the team), George would also trade for Chambliss and Pinella. Basically the 1970's core was being built. 75 would see Guidry burst on the scene, Yankees would also trade Murcer for Bobby Bonds (but Bonds would be gone in 76). George also would nab a catfish in free agency.
In 1976 Yankees would return to the AL championship after 12 year absence. Yankees would once again make a bunch of key trades Doyle Alexander, for garbage, They would move Bobby Bonds and some others getting a bunch of key pieces included Mickey Rivers and Figueroa...the throw in one trade was a guy named Willie Randolph. George would also trade for Oscar Gamble.
In 1977 George would make his splash get Reggie, a move that put the Yankees over the top and made Martin, Steinbrenner and Reggie legends. However another move may have been equally important in Yankee lore was.. Bucky Dent for Oscar Gamble.
Bottom line is the Yankees would win again
In 1978 George again went aggressive nabbing Gossage and a second world Series:
***But look at what George did. He built through trades and then added big time free agents***
But tragedy would strike likely sapping the life out of the Yankees. Specifically the loss of Munson.
The post 78 moves however put the team in decline... as the Yankees would not see another world series championship until 1996, and in fact from after 81 through 95 would not make it to the playoffs.
In 1979 the Yankees did some good things, specifically drafting a guy named Mattingly, Rijo and some other key players (one non key but interesting player was John Elway) BUT the manager cycle began and the Bronx Zoo was not just a one year phenom.
In the years after Winfield would top Yankee spending as Reggie took a severe decline in 1981. He would go nuts in California in 1982, but after that it was a steady decline.
Yankees would ironically draft well but with bad luck...They would draft Bo Jackson (who took his talents to football); and BJ Surhoff (who put up solid catching numbers) would be drafted but not join the Yankees. But a lethal trend would also begin as the Yankees would move Willie McGee for crap...and that would be the death spiral of the Yankees as every year another young player would get traded.
In 1983 we lost Fred McGriff (although we had a guy named Mattingly Coming up).
In 84 we would trade away Otis Nixon.
In 85 it was Rijo going to Oakland for Ricky Henderson (which in of itself wasn't a bad move). Ironically it was in 1985 where 1996 may have been won as a guy named Bernie Williams would be signed as would Jim Leyritz.
In 86 Yankees would trade some players and commit money to get a guy named Britt Burns who would get hurt and never pitch for us.
87; this trend became fatal as we gave away another young pitcher named Dough Drabek (who would win 148 games, 3 top 10 Cy Young (including winning the award), we would also trade Bob Tewksbury who would have 5 or 6 solid seasons for Steve Trout who alone ensured we didn't win the division. 1987 ensured we would be bad for a long time!
88; was made legend by Jerry Seinfeld - as Constanza would cry- Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps
89; George would blow up the team - which was fine - except he got crap! First the only ood trade nabbed Mel Hall for nothing (but if Mel Hall is your best decision your in trouble) - Hall would be a great bat and a horrible teammate. Most puzzling for me was trading Ricky Henderson who was unhappy about his contract for bucket of crap. Henderson over the next 4 seasons would average better than 20 HR, 50SB, never have an OBP less than .400. Yankees would dump Rick Rhoden, a very productive pitcher for nothing. It was unclear what the Yankees were doing in 1989. All I remember was going to the stadium with a sign entitled "Hang Steinbrenner". Yankees then signed a bunch of free agentsincluding Steve Sax (who couldn't throw to second).
Basically that was almost it under George. In 1990 one final gasp Steinbrenner would trade Dave Winfield for Mike Witt. Then George was out for 5 years. Yankees took solid player and traded them to other teams to which they were solid players. I used to sit back and see former Yankees succeed on other teams.
But then the rebuilding started. George would be suspended from the game for about 5 years. Stick Michael would take over. You might notice that the Yankees drafted pretty well in the 70's and 80's.
In that 5-years there would be no more young players traded...the Yankees would rebuild. When George returned he would have Pettiite, Rivera, Williams (who he wanted to trade). Strategic trades like Bobby Kelly for Paul O'Neil. Low end free agent picksups like Jimmy Key and Wade Boggs, would all work out. Posada would be on his way through the minors. In 1996 George would return, he would push Mattingly out (but from interviews Mattingly was playing in pain so it was time), he would hire a .500 manager he had a man love relationship with, and he would replace a popular hitting catcher with a guy who couldn't hit more than 5 HR when he played in Colorado. He would also go shopping netting Martinez and Nelson. In the end every move worked!
***Yes this is a long history*** but one I think Hal understands. You can't give away young talent and you have to pick your spots. Cashman knows this and so does Hal. The game is also different....there is a far bigger money aspect. The Yankees are a good team, and can outbid any team...add to that the lure of playing in the Mecca of Baseball. So we have advantages the Yankees should not lose (so long as Hal doesn't become George cica 1983)... And while there are a lot of unfilled seats....make no mistake they are paid for...so the money is pouring in.
the problem is that the Yankees today look a lot like the 1965 Yankees. Old legends; waiting for father time to finally catch up. Moreover, they have a new labor deal that says get to 189 million or pay 150% for an amount over whatever threshold there is. Yankees may return to 240 million payroll but they don't want to have to fork over another 30 million a year to do so.
As a Yankee fan I don't want to stink, I don't want to miss the playoffs. But more than that I don't want to stink permanently. For the past few years the team has made moves to try and transition.
Some blame Cashman. I don't. Take the Montero for Pineida...this was exactly the move we needed to make. The problem the dealer shows a 5 and you have a 6 and 5, and you double down....you don't always win. But that was a key move. A young ace with 5 years of control for a good hitting catcher who's defense was Victor Martinez like.
Look if I could have any team today I would want to be the Washington Nationals...but there is no way the Yankees could ever have that much young talent. Because they won't stand for Finishing near the bottom for 17 of the last 20 years. On the other hand, the last thing I want the Yankees to do is pick up big contracts on players who are relatively good for their free agent class but not all that impressive. This year the big money went to Hamilton (a walking time bomb), Greinke (mental problems with the NY media?), Swisher (60 million are you kidding me?). In stead the Yankees nabbed 2 years of Ichiro, a Year of Kuroda, a year of Pettite, and a year of Youkliss for about the same cost as Swisher. Something tells me this was a far better deal.
So what is Hal doing. He is saying look I'll spend money, but on short term deals. Last year he did this bringing us in Kuroda. He does this every year with Andy, he made a move for Youkliss and Ichiro. Would not be surprised if these moves work out, would not be shocked if they don't. If they do we will contend, if they don't we lose nothing for the future. Look we don't enter the season the "favorite"...but I also don't think we are road kill. We have a solid chance. Not bad for an aging team.
Lastly because of this free agent class, the Yankees will have a bunch of picks early in the draft based on free agents they lost. What if one or two become good players in 2017. Yes thats a long way away. But you know guys like Trout, Strasburg, will be close or at free agency by then. Its not about spending the money every year, its about when.
I have been a spoiled fan. But let me say this Jeter cannot be a Yankee if the Yankees are great in 1990. Yankees finishing last allowed them to draft Jeter in 1990. Basically two first ballot and two border line HOFer came up at the same time (Jeter, Mariano, Pettitte and Jorge). This is hard to find. But as Yankee fans we have to hope we can get a few young players that will be the next core. At that point I think you start writing big checks. But at this point I am content with sitting tight. Rather suck a few years then have to deal with a repeat of my childhood; by the time I was 9 and really into the Yankees all I would witness is losing. Not till I was legally able to drink would the Yankees be any good....and that season there was no world series!
Last edited by Bobshirleyrules; 01-11-2013 at 03:18 PM.
Hal is a moron. Period.
However, I want to add that George's aggressiveness had its upsides as well. Cashman's passiveness seems almost to be the yang to George's ying in this department. Cashman has made many questionable C-grade deals that turn out exactly as one would expect a C-grade deal to turn out and has compunsded the issue by balking at major trade scenarios that couldve had long term benefits for the team.
I also have to point out that our developmental system is seriously deficient and lets be honest, it's not like this is a new phenomenam for us.
If Hal was sincere in his remarks then I have hope going forwrad that he truly wishes to field a competetive product. What worries me is his insistance that Youkilis and Diaz represent some of the most in demand talent of the offseason market.
"Beats me. This guy behind me with the phone said he's a season ticket holder. You're going to have to ask him....."
I think you have to take Hal with a grain of salt. He is responding irrationally to irrational fans. Look Hal can't say publicly look our people believed Greinke couldn't handle NY, and that Hamilton would be in rehab by June 1st, thus we weren't going to commit almost 300 million those players.
The truth is I think Youkliss and Ichiro are going to have good years. Ichiro has a Yankee Stadium swing. I believe Ichiro is going to hit .315 18HR 75RBI 90 Runs with 35SB. Yes that's not a typo Ichiro is going to puy up similar Johnney Damon numbers but with far better defense. Youkliss has been hurt the past few years. But this guy is a hard nose player. His injury history and age doesn't warrant a long term deal. I can see this guy having a swan song season. One of the thing I have noted is that Ex Redsox players tend to have bounce back years in NY.
If Youkliss returns to say .290/22HR/100RBI/80Runs with a .370 OBP. Anyone want to guess where he would rank among 3B in the AL?
The only guy I would have pursued was Francisco Liriano. I think the Pirates stole him. Hard throwing Lefty in NY. The guy had the stuff his control (mechanics) were a little messed up. To me a rotation of CC/Liriano/Pettite/Kuroda/Hughes would have been great if you ask me.
Friend: I think the NBA paid off the Heat in the first yr because of the politics. They threw game four and they paid Lebron because they were angry with what he did. So he had pay one way or another.
F:There is no one in the draft coming out and trading players isn't going to happen. The Lakers are in trouble.
F: Vogel doesn't run that team. Shaw does. If he leaves they are going to suck and Vogel will get fired.