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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yeah a better BA but Piazza had a better career OPS, rWAR, home runs, RBIS, runs scored.

    The only stain on Piazza's legacy is like you said his defense and the unfortunate fact that he played in the steroid era.

    Of course anyone who assumes Piazza did steroids might be more partial to other catchers but obviously there's no direct link between Piazza and PEDS.
    Better, BA, OBP, wOBA, and defense, just less games.

  2. #62
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    Catcher is an incredibly demanding position. It's not suspicious to you that the greatest HR hitting catcher of all time also happened to play during the height of the steroid era? Thinking Piazza is clean is incredibly naive.

    If you think Piazza deserved first ballot, then you should feel the exact same way about Bonds and Clemens, IMO.

    I don't need rock hard concrete evidence to believe this. To me circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers-king View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Piazza is arguably the greatest offensive catcher of all time.

    If anyone deserved to go in this year it was him.
    If he had put those numbers up in the 80s, then yes, no problem. But I compare era's. His numbers were great for a catcher, but not spectacular for the era.

    I don't think he was a first-ballot guy IMO.
    You don't compare him to other positions though. Compared to Catchers he is a HOF..in any Era


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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Better, BA, OBP, wOBA, and defense, just less games.
    Well you have your stats and i have mine

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers-king View Post
    Catcher is an incredibly demanding position. It's not suspicious to you that the greatest HR hitting catcher of all time also happened to play during the height of the steroid era? Thinking Piazza is clean is incredibly naive.

    If you think Piazza deserved first ballot, then you should feel the exact same way about Bonds and Clemens, IMO.

    I don't need rock hard concrete evidence to believe this. To me circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
    Well i hate to say it even with the direct linkage to steroids i still think Bonds and Clemens are first ballot HOFs.

    They weren't going to get in because the BBWAA made it their business to keep them out on principle but i still think those guys are without question the best pitcher and player of the last 30 years (arguably longer) steroid aided or not.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-09-2013 at 11:59 PM.

  6. #66
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    I think baseball needs to give up on this sacrosanct stand against the steroid era.

    It's counter productive, they will never escape it, and we will never know all the players who did and didn't do them.

    They need to accept that its a part of baseball's history and if they feel they need to use an asterisk to describe that part of their history so be it but it's not going away anytime in the near future especially with all these players who played during it up for consideration in the coming years.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-10-2013 at 12:22 AM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers-king View Post
    Catcher is an incredibly demanding position. It's not suspicious to you that the greatest HR hitting catcher of all time also happened to play during the height of the steroid era? Thinking Piazza is clean is incredibly naive.

    If you think Piazza deserved first ballot, then you should feel the exact same way about Bonds and Clemens, IMO.

    I don't need rock hard concrete evidence to believe this. To me circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.
    Exactly. That is why his decline started after his age 31 season(end of his prime)

    I do think Bonds and Clemens should be first ballot HOF'ers, they were great players before they had their performance enhanced and their overall body of work can't just be ignored. But that's a seperate point.

    I don't think it's fair for Piazza to be guilty by association. He was never linked to steroids in anyway, and whatever suspicions against him should not be held against him since there is not enough proof to back up those claims.

  8. #68
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    Well unfortunately for Piazza, he's probably gonna have to wait at least until yr 3 of eligibility which is really sad... With all these guys on the ballot again next yr, plus the additions of guys like Maddux and Glavine next yr who many think are "first ballot HOFers".... Mike probably won't get in again.

    This sucks.

  9. #69
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    Joe Dimaggio

    I might be mistaken, but I believe that Joe DiMaggio did not get into the Hall Of Fame on the first ballot.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers-king View Post
    If he had put those numbers up in the 80s, then yes, no problem. But I compare era's. His numbers were great for a catcher, but not spectacular for the era.

    I don't think he was a first-ballot guy IMO.
    So because he didn't cheat and even though he was the most prolific offensive catcher of any era he didn't deserve a first ballot because others bloated their numbers by using PED's? I just don't agree with that. If these writers held back on Piazza because they have suspicion why all of a sudden a year from now will 17.2% of the voters suddenly have a change of heart, what more info do they need? Not one shred of anything has ever come out when Piazza played or since he's been retired in this whole steriod witch hunt. I think there should be a Jedi counsel of HOF players that determine who gets in, not these damn sports writers.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Exactly. That is why his decline started after his age 31 season(end of his prime)

    I do think Bonds and Clemens should be first ballot HOF'ers, they were great players before they had their performance enhanced and their overall body of work can't just be ignored. But that's a seperate point.

    I don't think it's fair for Piazza to be guilty by association. He was never linked to steroids in anyway, and whatever suspicions against him should not be held against him since there is not enough proof to back up those claims.
    You are right. Piazza started to decline after his prime and due to the abuse he took at the position he played. If he used HGH he should have been hitting 40+ homers and not skipping a beat or getting better like in Bonds case. They showed a stat on MLB Network where it showed that between ages 35-38 Bonds had better numbers than Babe Ruth in his prime in his mid to late 20's.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    You are right. Piazza started to decline after his prime and due to the abuse he took at the position he played. If he used HGH he should have been hitting 40+ homers and not skipping a beat or getting better like in Bonds case. They showed a stat on MLB Network where it showed that between ages 35-38 Bonds had better numbers than Babe Ruth in his prime in his mid to late 20's.
    Yeah well Bonds averaged 37 home runs a year in his career till 2000.

    From 2000-2004 he averaged 51 home runs a year (ages 35-39 where players aren't supposed to improve on their career numbers), it's pretty obvious when Bonds started to use.

    Not to mention he got ****ing huge.

    I mean he was hardly recognizable in comparison to the guy that came up with the Pirates in 1986.

    As for Piazza, although there is no direct linkage to PEDS he certainly still could have used them..

    I mean we would have to put our Met blinders on to admit it's not a possibility. The guy was a 62nd round pick and the only reason why he was picked by the Dodgers was a favor to Tommy Lasorda (his godfather), i mean unless he was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols there is certainly a chance Piazza used PEDS to become the player he became.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-10-2013 at 05:10 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yeah well Bonds averaged 37 home runs a year in his career till 2000.

    From 2000-2004 he averaged 51 home runs a year (ages 35-39 where players aren't supposed to improve on their career numbers), it's pretty obvious when Bonds started to use.

    Not to mention he got ****ing huge.

    I mean he was hardly recognizable in comparison to the guy that came up with the Pirates in 1986.

    As for Piazza, although there is no direct linkage to PEDS he certainly still could have used them..

    I mean we would have to put our Met blinders on to admit it's not a possibility. The guy was a 62nd round pick and the only reason why he was picked by the Dodgers was a favor to Tommy Lasorda (his godfather), i mean unless he was Albert Pujols before Albert Pujols there is certainly a chance Piazza used PEDS to become the player he became.
    Well then Piazza is indeed a mastermind and must have bought people off because for there not to be one person to ever come out with some bogus story of seeing him use, purchase or discuss it in private then he is the smartest of them all. Could it be that the guy worked his butt off because he was selected in the 62nd round to prove something? Players in the NFL and MLB that are usually selected that low are for the most part the ones that work their tails to the bone to show they belong. Could Piazza have cheated, sure, there is always a possibility of anything in this life but to watch the steady decline in his game he couldn't have possibly used IMO. There has to be clean superstars in baseball that have natural strength. Guys like Dunn, Thome, Piazza, Murphy, Schmidt, Mantle just to name a few off the top of my head were I believe the term is "country strong". Now Barry Bonds morphed into a WWE wrestler even from his first year in San Francisco in '93. Those other players I mentioned were the same size from when they came in till the day they retired or in Thome and Dunn's case still playing.
    Last edited by SILVER SEAVER; 01-10-2013 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY Sports Fan View Post
    I might be mistaken, but I believe that Joe DiMaggio did not get into the Hall Of Fame on the first ballot.
    He had to wait until his 4th ballot.
    Well done sir.


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    Well then Piazza is indeed a mastermind and must have bought people off because for there not to be one person to ever come out with some bogus story of seeing him use, purchase or discuss it in private then he is the smartest of them all. Could it be that the guy worked his butt off because he was selected in the 62nd round to prove something? Players in the NFL and MLB that are usually selected that low are for the most part the ones that work their tails to the bone to show they belong. Could Piazza have cheated, sure, there is always a possibility of anything in this life but to watch the steady decline in his game he couldn't have possibly used IMO. There has to be clean superstars in baseball that have natural strength. Guys like Dunn, Thome, Piazza, Murphy, Schmidt, Mantle just to name a few off the top of my head were I believe the term is "country strong". Now Barry Bonds morphed into a WWE wrestler even from his first year in San Francisco in '93. Those other players I mentioned were the same size from when they came in till the day they retired or in Thome and Dunn's case still playing.
    is it that hard to have a friend of a friend purchase and pick something up... you dont have to be a mastermind to acquire and do peds. think about all of the illegal drugs that are available... lots of people dont get caught

    Curt Schilling made a good point. Everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use.
    http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/88...clemens-denied

    The baseball writers did the right thing whether you agree with it or not
    I'm just that damn nice

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