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View Poll Results: Do you Consider Bill Russell A Top Ten Player Of All-Time?

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  • Yes

    32 68.09%
  • No

    15 31.91%
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  1. #61
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    Russell is 18th in career win shares - during a time when defensive win shares are suspect in terms of being well overstated.

    Bill Russell isn't even in the NBA top 300 for offensive win shares either.

    104th in PER.

    .561 from the line.....

    .440 from the field with no competition in his first 3 years, and not that much thereafter until his final 4 years. He took 90% of his shots inside of 6 feet.

    Not top 10. Unless you think titles with a great team/coach/GM and lots of D and rebounding is enough to get him in. He's outside the top 10, and I saw him play, and grew up with the mystique more than all of you.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by b@llhog24 View Post
    Well I think you have him too high, so are we at a deadlock here? I don't really care if someone has him as high as top 5, but personally I'll say that that person values "winning" a little bit too much. Robert Horry should make that person's top 50 if skill curves don't mean that much. He's typically in my top 12 for the record.
    Wait, hold on...Did you just compare horry to Bill freaking Russell?

    I don't have Russell near the top due to his titles...I factor in accolades/interviews from player and coaches during that time ect..

    He won 5 League MVP's...Thats as many as MJ...

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Russell is 18th in career win shares - during a time when defensive win shares are suspect in terms of being well overstated.

    Bill Russell isn't even in the NBA top 300 for offensive win shares either.

    104th in PER.

    .561 from the line.....

    .440 from the field with no competition in his first 3 years, and not that much thereafter until his final 4 years. He took 90% of his shots inside of 6 feet.

    Not top 10. Unless you think titles with a great team/coach/GM and lots of D and rebounding is enough to get him in. He's outside the top 10, and I saw him play, and grew up with the mystique more than all of you.

    11 Titles in a 13 yr span WHILE winning 5 League MVP's? The combination of winning/accolades should EASILY land him a spot in the top 5.

    Stats are just that...stats. This isn't baseball and thats not the only thing that can be looked at. Its a team sport played together with 4 other teammates all at 1 time, Here's a few questions that need too be asked

    1. Does he make his teammates better or worse?
    2. Does he CARE about stats?
    3. when a player has big stats, does he do so in the flow of the game and do so as a bennifit to his team?


    Question, Pretend its 1970...you have a #1 pick too have anyone you want in there prime (so you could select 1960 version of russell for example)...Who do you pick?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    Wait, hold on...Did you just compare horry to Bill freaking Russell?

    I don't have Russell near the top due to his titles...I factor in accolades/interviews from player and coaches during that time ect..

    He won 5 League MVP's...Thats as many as MJ...
    In a league with about 1/3 of the players and about 1/3 of the serious year to year candidates for MVP.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    11 Titles in a 13 yr span WHILE winning 5 League MVP's? The combination of winning/accolades should EASILY land him a spot in the top 5.
    Opinions clearly differ. Russell probably had the best set-up for continued winning of any player all time. He cashed it in, which is in his favor, but to pretend that nobody else could have done it because nobody else has had the chance is nonsense of epic proportions.

    Stats are just that...stats. This isn't baseball and thats not the only thing that can be looked at. Its a team sport played together with 4 other teammates all at 1 time, Here's a few questions that need too be asked
    Titles and MVP's are also stats - but you approve of them because they further your agenda - which is nakedly "All hail Bill Russell".

    BTW did Bill miss 2466 regular season and 439 post season free throws in an attempt to help the self esteem of his players or the other teams, or did he just SUCK at FT's? So, it's safe to say that's at least one stat you can't hide from, missed FG's are another. 8575 missed FG's combined. Good God!

    Question, Pretend its 1970...you have a #1 pick too have anyone you want in there prime (so you could select 1960 version of russell for example)...Who do you pick?
    You mean anyone available in 1970, or before? With no 3 PT line?

    Before the ABA/NBA merger Russell is clearly in the top 5. That is without knowing the particulars of the team he is going to. He might not even be top 10 in some cases, like needing a two way center that had a good outside game for instance.

    But, we are 35 years past that time, or in terms of the history of the NBA, more than 1/2 of the history of the NBA has happened since the merger, and more of the great players in NBA history debuted from 1970 onward - then before. Both in terms of their own time and head to head irrespective of time.

    In addition the out of SFS Bill Russell into 1970, would be the creaky old guy by 1980. I certainly wouldn't take him #1, unless I had a team that was stacked, and needed no offense, but needed a lot of defense, and defensive rebounding, and some passing. How many teams in 1970 were set up for that exact guy?

    If I was actually drafting the first guy for a team? Kareem #1. Easily.

    Jabbar debuted in 1969-1970. He played 1797 games the most by any player, dwarfing Russell's 1128.

    Jabbar was still an impact top player as late as 1985-1986, if Russell started playing in 1970 it sure looks like he'd have been done before then.

    Jabbar won six MVP's and six titles in a tougher environment than anything Russell faced - and did it at a high level a good deal longer. Simple choice.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-09-2013 at 09:58 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    Wait, hold on...Did you just compare horry to Bill freaking Russell?

    I don't have Russell near the top due to his titles...I factor in accolades/interviews from player and coaches during that time ect..

    He won 5 League MVP's...Thats as many as MJ...
    1) You can compare ANY player to another, doesn't make it a good comparison but you can. Sorry just get tired of hearing "Did you just compare so and so to whosoever."

    2) I'm comparing them as "winners" the gap between Bill Russel and the other all time greats is about as wide as the the gap between Horry and guys in the top 50-60 all time. My point is, IF you value winning so much that it overlooks the massive production and skill curve differential between Bill and let's say Hakeem then surely Big Shot Rob who has a similar disparity between let's say a Reggie Miller should be ranked ahead of Miller, no?


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by b@llhog24 View Post
    2) I'm comparing them as "winners" the gap between Bill Russel and the other all time greats is about as wide as the the gap between Horry and guys in the top 50-60 all time. My point is, IF you value winning so much that it overlooks the massive production and skill curve differential between Bill and let's say Hakeem then surely Big Shot Rob who has a similar disparity between let's say a Reggie Miller should be ranked ahead of Miller, no?

    * Russell was the backbone of the dynasty wininng 5 League MVP's while Horry was a role guy..

    * He won 5 League MVP's, Finnished 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice and his rookie season 7th (So low due to playing 48 games due to olympics)..

    So lets look at his last 11 seasons..

    WON MVP 45% of the time
    Finnished in the top 2 in MVP 64% of the time
    Finnished in the top 3 in MVP 90% of the time
    Finnished in the top 4 in MVP 100% of the time

    A guy that is in the top 4 in MVP voting 100% while winning 11 titles in 13 yrs? Yes...He doesn't belong in the top 5

    opposing coaches, opposing players, his teammates ect ect...All agree he was absolutely the key to the c's title runs..
    Last edited by Bos_Sports4Life; 01-09-2013 at 10:01 PM.

  8. #68
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    I'd like to see the folks that have Russell in the top 10, list their top 10.

    No matter how I cut it, #16 is the highest I can put him.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    * Russell was the backbone of the dynasty wininng 5 League MVP's while Horry was a role guy..

    * He won 5 League MVP's, Finnished 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice and his rookie season 7th (So low due to playing 48 games due to olympics)..

    So lets look at his last 11 seasons..

    WON MVP 45% of the time
    Finnished in the top 2 in MVP 64% of the time
    Finnished in the top 3 in MVP 90% of the time
    Finnished in the top 4 in MVP 100% of the time

    A guy that is in the top 4 in MVP voting 100% while winning 11 titles in 13 yrs? Yes...He doesn't belong in the top 5

    opposing coaches, opposing players, his teammates ect ect...All agree he was absolutely the key to the c's title runs..
    Lot easier to be in the top 4 MVP votes when there 96 or 108 other players in the league not on your team in most of your years. Also easy when you're on a great team, with a great Coach/GM.

    Jordan finished 6 years in a row in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd with 312 players on other teams to contend with.

    Russell is only 5th in MVP Award Shares, with Jordan, Jabbar, Bird, and Magic ahead of him - all facing more opposing players and teams then Russell, and all of the 4 in fact facing each other. Bird in fact played less games than Russell - so per game he was considered a good deal more valuable then Russell with 5.693 MVP win shares to Russell's 4.827.

    It's the Celtics needed what Russell had more than any other team of his time, and he would have done less for and with any other team of his time. I.E. as you know the Celts were an offensive club without a defensive anchor and he was it. But he needed their offense and out of the paint D, etc. - it is after all a team game, and he filled a role, he was not a two way player, nor capable of carrying a team with his rather poor offensive skills and percentages - even by the minimal standards of his day. He needed those players that you have denigrated in the past to push your agenda.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-09-2013 at 10:23 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Russell is only 5th in MVP Award Shares, with Jordan, Jabbar, Bird, and Magic ahead of him - all facing more opposing players and teams then Russell, and all of the 4 in fact facing each other. Bird in fact played less games than Russell - so per game he was considered a good deal more valuable then Russell with 5.693 MVP win shares to Russell's 4.827.
    .
    Now how many times did bird/kareem ect lose in the playoffs while having the better team and with HCA?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    Now how many times did bird/kareem ect lose in the playoffs while having the better team and with HCA?
    The 80's was absolutely the era that the most great teams existed in any given year. When you have a large number of great players and teams working as hard as possible, nobody is going to win all the titles.

    Look at the Russell era. How about 1962-1963 - right in the middle of Russell's time.

    Well first of all, all you had to do is win one Series to get into the Finals. That wasn't the case in the 1980's was it?

    Let's look at the Lakers. Baylor having a great year, West having a very good one, Dick Barnett a swing G/F having one of his better years. Nothing and nobody else of note, the Center was the infinitely inferior 6' 8" Jim Krebs. 8.3/6.4/1.1.

    Wow, what a mighty challenge that was, the Celts should have mowed that team down. Russell played and LAL still managed to win two games. Did I say Baylor was unconsious that year? 3rd best player in the league.

    The top 8 players in that Series by league rank win share was:

    Baylor (3), West (11), Barnett (12)

    Russell (7), Jones (8), Tommy (16), Sanders (17), Havlicek (19)

    Russell failed to dominate the playoffs for some reason or other - ho hum.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-09-2013 at 11:00 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    I'd like to see the folks that have Russell in the top 10, list their top 10.

    No matter how I cut it, #16 is the highest I can put him.
    #16 are you freaking ******** me?
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    The 80's was absolutely the era that the most great teams existed in any given year. When you have a large number of great players and teams working as hard as possible, nobody is going to win all the titles.

    Look at the Russell era. How about 1962-1963 - right in the middle of Russell's time.

    Well first of all, all you had to do is win one Series to get into the Finals. That wasn't the case in the 1980's was it?

    Let's look at the Lakers. Baylor having a great year, West having a very good one, Dick Barnett a swing G/F having one of his better years. Nothing and nobody else of note, the Center was the infinitely inferior 6' 8" Jim Krebs. 8.3/6.4/1.1.

    Wow, what a mighty challenge that was, the Celts should have mowed that team down. Russell played and LAL still managed to win two games. Did I say Baylor was unconsious that year? 3rd best player in the league.

    The top 8 players in that Series by league rank win share was:

    Baylor (3), West (11), Barnett (12)

    Russell (7), Jones (8), Tommy (16), Sanders (17), Havlicek (19)

    Russell failed to dominate the playoffs for some reason or other - ho hum.

    I asked how many times did they lose when they were clearly the favores/Had HCA , Not how much harder it was too win titles...

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    * Russell was the backbone of the dynasty wininng 5 League MVP's while Horry was a role guy..
    You know most people define specialist as "role players" right? Who does that remind you of?

    * He won 5 League MVP's, Finnished 2nd twice, 3rd twice, 4th twice and his rookie season 7th (So low due to playing 48 games due to olympics)..

    So lets look at his last 11 seasons..

    WON MVP 45% of the time
    Finnished in the top 2 in MVP 64% of the time
    Finnished in the top 3 in MVP 90% of the time
    Finnished in the top 4 in MVP 100% of the time
    When I was small, me and my cousins used to pick 3 other members to be on our team for a 4x1 relay. Dude always used to pick the best runners cause he had a loaded coin, while I got the misfits. Lol seriously, who do you expect to win? The guy with misfits, or with the all-star squad? That's how I feel about Bill Russel.

    A guy that is in the top 4 in MVP voting 100% while winning 11 titles in 13 yrs? Yes...He doesn't belong in the top 5
    He could be in your top 5, 3, or your personal GOAT. In my book he wasn't a better basketball player than:

    MJ
    Wilt
    KAJ
    Shaq
    Hakeem
    Duncan
    Bird
    Magic
    Drob
    Barkley
    Kobe

    I don't think that you deny that Russel would be anymore of a role player in this day and age, but I think we're disagreeing to where the cut off is between "winning", individual dominance and transcendence. Not sure why you think that anybody HAS to have him in their top *insert arbitrary number.* If we were having a "best NBA career" thread my answer would be fairly different.

    opposing coaches, opposing players, his teammates ect ect...All agree he was absolutely the key to the c's title runs..
    Where did I say he wasn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    #16 are you freaking ******** me?
    Not at all.

    Do you agree that Russell had the best env to play in (team with a high pace offense lacking inside D and rebounding, Red Auerbach coaching and fleecing with the best of all time, small 8 and 9 team league most of his years, no Wilt the first 3 years of his career).

    Do you know what the term "hot house flower" means? It's my contention that Russell is the the #1 hot house flower in NBA history, and to his credit he brought home the bacon.

    Go look at the roster of the Pistons in his rookie year - then each year through 1969. If Russell was drafted by the Pistons and kept there, he would have won zero titles, and Russell would be less familiar then Neil Johnston is to us now.

    How does a one way player with poor offensive numbers and no titles make the HOF?

    Sorry, but Russell can't get credited with everything in his resume, and sheer dumb luck is one very large portion of his story.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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