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View Poll Results: Do you Consider Bill Russell A Top Ten Player Of All-Time?

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  • Yes

    32 68.09%
  • No

    15 31.91%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    No he is not, and this is from the only PSD poster I know of that saw him play, and was and is a Celtics fan.

    Firstly the title argument has to be modified. He won about 4-5 of his titles in a league with 7 other teams in it, 3-4 of the others with 8, and a couple of years with 9 and one with 11. Magic's titles as a group were much harder to obtain then Russell's as a group IMO.

    Also, Russell having the best Coach, GM, and most of the time by far best team to go with him has to be taken into consideration. Ask yourself how many titles he has if he's on the Pistons instead of the Celts.

    Russell is the only player that has any argument whatever to be in the top 20 all time that was essentially a one way player. It's been argued he could have scored more - he could have early, but by 1964-1965 the league was full of very capable to great 7 footers, and Russell was no longer able to get his offense off. He was a poor FT shooter, had a very elemental offense, even for the time.

    Hakeem
    Duncan
    Robinson
    Moses
    Jabbar
    Wilt
    Shaq
    Ewing

    IMO are all clearly better, if you extract the myths away from the facts.

    As a winner, leader, rebounder, passer, and defender he still stands up very well after all these years, but his lack of offensive skill AND production (outside of passing and offensive rebounding) is a huge negative.
    great post. I mean, his winning and team dominance, as well as his matchups with Wilt can't be ignored, but to say Russell is a top 10 player ever, individually, if we removed team success, is a joke.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    IMO, if you put Russell on any of Shaq, Duncan, or Hakeem's teams, they wouldn't have won rings. That to me says a lot. How can you rank someone as the better player when they couldn't have equal or better results in a similar situation? How come we are not allowed to ask these questions when ranking the all-time greats?
    Because there really aren't any players in the history of any sport that would be equally as dominant 60 years later as they were in their own era

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    IMO, if you put Russell on any of Shaq, Duncan, or Hakeem's teams, they wouldn't have won rings. That to me says a lot. How can you rank someone as the better player when they couldn't have equal or better results in a similar situation? How come we are not allowed to ask these questions when ranking the all-time greats?
    Wait do you mean add Russell to Hakeem's Rockets, or replace Hakeem with Russell? If you mean the later, do you mean as he was? If that's what you mean you are way off, Russell would have won zero titles with the Rockets and Lakers, and Spurs.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by conway429 View Post
    Except for the fact him and Wilt Chamberlain pretty much battled it out every year for his entire career... wtf are you talking about
    Every year??? Russell for a while was the only player in the league who could contain Wilt. There weren't very many legit big men in the league from 58-65. At 6'9, Russell was one of the tallest players in the league. Do doubt he wasn't really good defensively though. Thats why he should be in the top 15 IMO.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Wait do you mean add Russell to Hakeem's Rockets, or replace Hakeem with Russell? If you mean the later, do you mean as he was? If that's what you mean you are way off, Russell would have won zero titles with the Rockets and Lakers, and Spurs.
    I meant replace them.

    I also believe that they wouldn't have won any titles.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Duncan played defense against the toughest centers of his era, as well as the toughest centers of his era played defense against him. Lebron is not a good comparison because he plays too much from the wing to be compared to a PF. Duncan is a forward/center for sure.
    lots of players are capable of playing more than 1 position. the position they spend the most time at is where i think they should be compared/viewed. Duncan played mostly power. Heck, Bosh is playing center this year and i'm sure when they play a true center like howard he would guard them. should we mention bosh as a center lol
    Last edited by FlashMacker; 01-08-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by conway429 View Post
    Because there really aren't any players in the history of any sport that would be equally as dominant 60 years later as they were in their own era
    No one would be equally as dominant, but do you really not believe that Wilt wouldn't be the best center in today's NBA?

    What about Kareem? He could be pretty close to as dominant as he was. So could Shaq and Hakeem.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashMacker View Post
    lots of players are capable of playing more than 1 position. the position they spend the most time at is where they should be compared. Duncan played mostly power. Heck, Bosh is playing center this year and i'm sure when they play a true center like howard he would guard them. should we mention bosh as a center lol
    Most experts would describe Duncan as a forward/center.

    In big playoff games, he would guard the teams best big man, either center or PF. Likewise, the opposing teams best big man would guard him, either center or PF.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    No one would be equally as dominant, but do you really not believe that Wilt wouldn't be the best center in today's NBA?

    What about Kareem? He could be pretty close to as dominant as he was. So could Shaq and Hakeem.
    Arguably in today's NBA.... but that's more to do with there being a lack of talent at the center position right now.
    Rewind 20 years and Hakeem destroys Wilt.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by conway429 View Post
    Arguably in today's NBA.... but that's more to do with there being a lack of talent at the center position right now.
    Rewind 20 years and Hakeem destroys Wilt.
    For sure in today's NBA Wilt would be far and away the best center. That's why he is in the top five.

    As far as Hakeem destroying him...thats very debatable.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    No one would be equally as dominant, but do you really not believe that Wilt wouldn't be the best center in today's NBA?

    What about Kareem? He could be pretty close to as dominant as he was. So could Shaq and Hakeem.
    Wilt's bad FT shooting would hurt him in key games down the stretch. He scored a lot, but he wasn't that skilled an offensive player - more of a bludgeon than a rapier. Wilt in his prime was fast up and down the floor, but his side to side was not a strong suit and would be exposed today. OTOH the state of Centers now is disgraceful.

    Shaq and Hakeem are easy arguments being fairly close in time and great. Jabbar would still have problems with muscle players inside - just like Moses flummoxed him in his time.

    I have to agree Hakeem > Wilt, and Hakeem > or >> or >>> any Center living or dead.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Most experts would describe Duncan as a forward/center.

    In big playoff games, he would guard the teams best big man, either center or PF. Likewise, the opposing teams best big man would guard him, either center or PF.
    don't you ever hear people referring to him as the greatest power forward? plus kobe, lebron, wade usually defend the best player on the other team even if their not the same position.

    sure duncan plays both but when you mention all time great players by position duncan is a power forward
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Most experts would describe Duncan as a forward/center.

    In big playoff games, he would guard the teams best big man, either center or PF. Likewise, the opposing teams best big man would guard him, either center or PF.
    He's a Power Forward.


    #wankfortiggins

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThaDubs View Post
    He's a Power Forward.
    He's both, which enhances his value even more.

    Look at Bird. He played the #3 on offense, but often played the #4 on D - so? It's silly to hear people describe him as a SF - nothing like a SF that gets 10 RPG.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    This is the wrong way to compare players. They need to be measured against their era, and that is really the only fair way. Sports evolve. 100 years from now, if we measured it your way, Magic, KAJ, Bird, Kobe, and many other top 10 players ever would be kicked out, because the league will be filled with bigger, stronger, more skilled players at that time.

    To answer the question, yes, he makes my top 10, but I am not as high on him as many. He was just so limited offensively, and while you compare against era, he didn't face anywhere near the competition of his later peers.
    then why isn't George Mikan in the top 10? Dominated the early stages of the NBA, 4 time champion in just 6 years.

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