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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Backstabber View Post
    The Knicks 2nd best perimeter player is JR hands down. Nothing from last year told me Shump was on JRs caliber.

    By JRs play this year, I absolutely think he can start. I just don't think its best for the team. Nor do I think its best for JR. JR put up 18 shots last night, he's clearly our second scorer. When Melo is not on the floor, the offense goes through JR. Really could you see the offense going through Shump at this point in his career.

    Shump offers a playmaker on defense, with the talent to be an offensive presence. JR is a force on offense and not to shabby as a perimeter defender, rebounder, and playmaker.

    Shump has significant strides to make before he can be said to be as good as JR, especially the way JR is playing this season.
    The Knicks 2nd best perimeter player when we're at full strength is actually named Raymond Felton IMO this year, and I'm glad he's getting a break to get healthy. I can see the offense going through him, because it does. And in reality look at the numbers and look on court, all JR does better than he does is rebound, and they're basically the same age. No one is arguing that JR is the team's 2nd scorer right now, but he's not when we're fully healthy. And Amare will clearly take that role.

    And to answer your question, I can't see it going through Shump at this point. But, but pretty soon yes. Maybe next season.

    And if you believe Shump has a ton of work to do to get to where JR is you're confused. Shumpert was better than JR last year. Like I said, JR has to do it for a longer stretch than 8 games before I think he can keep this current stretch up. Don't be a prisoner of the moment, I've watched his whole career, and this is the best stretch of his career and it's still not all star worthy or anything.

    JR may be the most talented of the 3, but Felton and Iman have skills that you can rely on, and both have better B Ball IQs. I need to see where JR is at the all star break before I totally buy into what he's been doing, because before this current stretch he had a poor one. But, we'll see.

    It's a great testament to this team though that we can have this conversation, because if the voting was today...I agree that JR Smith is the current 6th man of the year, even if I would trust Crawford and definitely KMart more. But I think Felton has been overall more important and will be the better player this year....Shumpert will come back and eventually be as good or more important IMO. That's not even mention J Kidd who the whole world claims is the Knicks 3rd most important player after Melo and Tyson. Add in Amare, and the Knicks are loaded.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busta View Post
    The Knicks 2nd best perimeter player when we're at full strength is actually named Raymond Felton IMO this year, and I'm glad he's getting a break to get healthy. I can see the offense going through him, because it does. And in reality look at the numbers and look on court, all JR does better than he does is rebound, and they're basically the same age. No one is arguing that JR is the team's 2nd scorer right now, but he's not when we're fully healthy. And Amare will clearly take that role.

    And to answer your question, I can't see it going through Shump at this point. But, but pretty soon yes. Maybe next season.

    And if you believe Shump has a ton of work to do to get to where JR is you're confused. Shumpert was better than JR last year. Like I said, JR has to do it for a longer stretch than 8 games before I think he can keep this current stretch up. Don't be a prisoner of the moment, I've watched his whole career, and this is the best stretch of his career and it's still not all star worthy or anything.

    JR may be the most talented of the 3, but Felton and Iman have skills that you can rely on, and both have better B Ball IQs. I need to see where JR is at the all star break before I totally buy into what he's been doing, because before this current stretch he had a poor one. But, we'll see.

    It's a great testament to this team though that we can have this conversation, because if the voting was today...I agree that JR Smith is the current 6th man of the year, even if I would trust Crawford and definitely KMart more. But I think Felton has been overall more important and will be the better player this year....Shumpert will come back and eventually be as good or more important IMO. That's not even mention J Kidd who the whole world claims is the Knicks 3rd most important player after Melo and Tyson. Add in Amare, and the Knicks are loaded.
    I'm not saying JR is an all star, and not a victim of the moment. But last year was a freak year. Melo played the worst basketball of his career last year, we had zero PG presence. I would argue that judging JR on the 1/4 year that he played last year is unfair. Judge JR on the amount of total games he's played with the Knicks and weigh that against the total games Shump has played. That's more of a comparison.

    Shump will improve this team significantly, if he brings what he brought last year. But JR, is a lot more polished offensively. Woody has also placed a lot of capital in JR (for a reason), and it appears to be paying off. The statement was Shump is the NY Knicks best perimeter player second to Melo. My argument is not right now.

    Its alright to have the long view, but we live in the now. And right now you even agree we wouldn't run the offense through Shump, the way we are now with JR. Meaning Shump "has significant strides to make before he can said to be as good as JR"
    Last edited by Backstabber; 01-06-2013 at 04:42 PM.


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  3. #63
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    JR has earned the right to close games for us. He and Melo are our closers. Shump is not getting that spot OVER JR. Maybe next to him (don't see how that would work) but not over him. JR hits huge buckets in the clutch, gets huge rebounds in the clutch, gets huge steals in the clutch, and is no slouch on defense.

    He ain't starting though, Woody all but said thats not even a consideration. Not even worth discussing at this point.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  4. #64
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    I think were going to close games with Felton-Kidd-JR-Melo-Chandler.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I think were going to close games with Felton-Kidd-JR-Melo-Chandler.
    I think it depends on the situation and who's playing well and who's not.

    We have seen Novak in when we need offense then Brewer come in for defense, so I can see Shump take that role.

    But to be honest, you don't fix what aint broke and you go with what is working now.

    It is going to have to do with so many things, who we are playing, the matchups, are we up or down, and the flow of the game.

    The great news is we have options like we haven't had in the longest of times.



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  6. #66
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    I could definitely see in close finishes adding Kidd/Shump to the Novak/Brewer offense/defense substitution list.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by still a fan View Post
    I think it depends on the situation and who's playing well and who's not.

    We have seen Novak in when we need offense then Brewer come in for defense, so I can see Shump take that role.

    But to be honest, you don't fix what aint broke and you go with what is working now.

    It is going to have to do with so many things, who we are playing, the matchups, are we up or down, and the flow of the game.

    The great news is we have options like we haven't had in the longest of times.
    Yea without a doubt. That was basically the 'general' closing lineup. Guys like Shump, Novak, Amare will be out there depending on matchups and how they are playing that particular night and the score/unique game situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Costanza View Post
    I could definitely see in close finishes adding Kidd/Shump to the Novak/Brewer offense/defense substitution list.
    IMO, Kidd doesn't leave the floor on either end, his IQ is just as valuable on defense as it is on offense and hes got his hands on some huge balls for us defensively in big moments late in games. Hes is a pest defensively late in games, just ask Sebastion Telfair.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  8. #68
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    I'm personally not a huge fan of offensive defensive subs late in games. Maybe for a final possession but I don't like it for the final 2-3 minutes. It disrupts the flow and it leaves you in vulnerable positions. If a guy is a complete and utter liability on either end, its tough to have them out there late in games at all. We put Novak out there for offense and than it cost us the game on the other end against the Kings.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  9. #69
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    I think he should start, really sets the defensive tone. We rebound a lot better and Camby is probably our best passer in the post (maybe Sheed is better).

    Also, it frees Amare to be the first big off the bench, where's he's doing okay.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I think were going to close games with Felton-Kidd-JR-Melo-Chandler.
    by the end of the season , if shump is full strength...I would not mind seeing a Kidd,shump,JR,Melo and Chandler on the Court depending what type of team we are playing.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofakop View Post
    by the end of the season , if shump is full strength...I would not mind seeing a Kidd,shump,JR,Melo and Chandler on the Court depending what type of team we are playing.
    I wouldn't either, but I don't see Woody benching Ray or Kidd late in any games. Same goes for JR, Melo and Chandler. No more spots left for Shump.

    I like your lineup, just trying to speculate what I see Woody doing.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I wouldn't either, but I don't see Woody benching Ray or Kidd late in any games. Same goes for JR, Melo and Chandler. No more spots left for Shump.

    I like your lineup, just trying to speculate what I see Woody doing.
    Yeah I agree.... but at least we know he loves hustle and D... and that ..shump definitely brings .... I do love the fact we have so many options..as long as its not Brew(in his present state).. I would be ok with most

  13. #73
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    Kidd HAS to be out there in crunch time, no ifs/ands/buts about it..

    If for no other reason, because his IQ/experience gives a stability, a calmness to the chaos at the end. And then there's the clutch shooting, the D, the passing, the rebounding, and whatever else lol..

  14. #74
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    I just hope this team can be healthy come February and we can really see what they have. I'm sure Woodson doesn't even know what the starting lineup will be in 2 weeks.

    Is Wallace gonna start? Amare? Shumpert? Brewer?

    I think it appears the team's best overall lineup will be Felton/Shump/JR/Melo/Tyson. Athletic, 2 way players. 4 guys who can run the pick and roll with Tyson, drive to the rack, and shoot the ball. To date the best lineup has been, Felton/Kidd/JR/Melo/Tyson...I think adding a bit more aggression on both ends with Shump could help.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MELO7NYK/DENfan View Post
    The starting line up when everyone is healthy is going to be...

    Felton
    Shumpert
    Melo
    Amare
    Chandler

    then the bench look like this...

    Kidd/Prigs
    J.R.
    Brewer
    Rasheed/Novak
    Camby
    I think its time for another -who will start & come off the bench when once every one is healthy- thread... Lol its been a while...

    I would have to agree with your picks... I can see Jkid closing out games for us at the 2, but its going to be interesting how coach uses JR & Shump with the offense defense match-ups... JR is playing excellent ball but our perimeter defense has a lot to do with guys running by our guards to the rim, like we saw last night vs Orlando.
    The Future is Now

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