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  1. #1
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    why doesnt skiles start mike john n tobias?

    i think a line up of jennings,dunleavy,harris,henson and sanders would be better than the line up we have now and than we dont lose points of the bench because that gives ellis the green light since dunleavy wont be able to log crazy min as a starter anyway but i think with this line up we would have our best shooter, most efficent scorer and two really good young bigs that need the PT to get better and maybe become the face of the franchise does anyone agree with this at all or think theres a better starting line up that gives us a better chance to win?

    i really thing we need to stop starting daniels and luc even with luc showing he's worked on his offense
    This thread right here is why i stay out of the nba main forum on psd lol
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  2. #2
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    also with this line up jennings can push the ball all he wants as long as the 2 bigs run the floor dunleavy is the oldest player on the team and may not be able to keep up that pace as a starter the whole season but could run to the 3pt line every time down n hit open 3's
    This thread right here is why i stay out of the nba main forum on psd lol
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  3. #3
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    I agree that I'm not a big Daniels fan, but you need Ellis starting. Jennings isn't a creator, he's more of a shooter. Dunleavy is great in the re he's I , so why change that. I like Henson and he needs more minutes, but he also needs to hot the weights. Guys are just walking him underneath the hoop. Harris is a pretty poor defender and with that lineup, you're going to be pretty poor defensively and about average on offense.

    Also, I hate the idea of efficient scorers. It's simply code for the guy takes shot within his game. That's all fine and dandy and its a great way to play but its not like if Tobias took more shots he'd automatically score at that same percentage. He takes smart shots but I don't think he's a guy you run the offense through. Part of the reason he takes smart shots is because he's not asked I do too much within the offense whereas more inefficient guys like Ellis and Jennings are asked to do more on offense.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    I agree that I'm not a big Daniels fan, but you need Ellis starting. Jennings isn't a creator, he's more of a shooter. Dunleavy is great in the re he's I , so why change that. I like Henson and he needs more minutes, but he also needs to hot the weights. Guys are just walking him underneath the hoop. Harris is a pretty poor defender and with that lineup, you're going to be pretty poor defensively and about average on offense.

    Also, I hate the idea of efficient scorers. It's simply code for the guy takes shot within his game. That's all fine and dandy and its a great way to play but its not like if Tobias took more shots he'd automatically score at that same percentage. He takes smart shots but I don't think he's a guy you run the offense through. Part of the reason he takes smart shots is because he's not asked I do too much within the offense whereas more inefficient guys like Ellis and Jennings are asked to do more on offense.
    I think this is a weak argument. So are you saying then that we ask Monta to dribble to much and to take contested 18 foot jumpers and drive into the lane and leave his feet and try to pass.

    Tobias is an efficient offensive player because he is a smart offensive player. Now am I refuting the fact that he doesn't take more challenging shots? NO. What I'm saying is Tobias recognizes right now where his strong suit is. However to disregard his efficiency because he doesn't take challenging or more shots doesn't sit with me. Not when I've seen the kid pulled 3o seconds after shooting 2 shots back to back. The kid needs to play.

    It's not because of something he is not doing. He's a very good offensive player and for a team that really lacks scoring it is simply mind blowing some nights to see him sit on the bench while we struggle to score overtime down the court.

    Furthermore why would you want a player taking shots outside his range anyway? Didn't some of you guys ***** and moan about how Larry Sanders shoots too much from outside? Well here is the other side of that sword.
    Last edited by time4change; 01-05-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  5. #5
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    My point is that if everyone waits until they get a great, high percentage look, you're going to have a ton of shot clock violations. Look at a guy like James harden. His shooting percentages are down from last year. The reason for that is because he's asked to do more within the offense. He just cat sit back an have Durant and Westbrook create shots and hit open jumpers. He has to create his own, thus his percentages are down. Usually when someone's calling card is being an efficient scorer, it means they are at best te third option.

    I'm not criticizing him as a bad player. I like that he takes efficient shots and I'm not encouraging him to start jacking up shots. But to act like he should be a bigger part of the offense and if he starts to take on a bigger scoring load that he'll remain as efficient is a false assumption in my mind.

    I really don't think Tobias has earned that many minutes. He's not quick enough to guard opposing 3s and he's not going to crack the rotation as a 4. I would rater have dunleavy or even luc Richard than Tobias at this point.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    My point is that if everyone waits until they get a great, high percentage look, you're going to have a ton of shot clock violations. Look at a guy like James harden. His shooting percentages are down from last year. The reason for that is because he's asked to do more within the offense. He just cat sit back an have Durant and Westbrook create shots and hit open jumpers. He has to create his own, thus his percentages are down. Usually when someone's calling card is being an efficient scorer, it means they are at best te third option.

    I'm not criticizing him as a bad player. I like that he takes efficient shots and I'm not encouraging him to start jacking up shots. But to act like he should be a bigger part of the offense and if he starts to take on a bigger scoring load that he'll remain as efficient is a false assumption in my mind.

    I really don't think Tobias has earned that many minutes. He's not quick enough to guard opposing 3s and he's not going to crack the rotation as a 4. I would rater have dunleavy or even luc Richard than Tobias at this point.
    James is shooting .5% less from FG than last year and .3% less from 3. BTW he is averaging 26 5 and 4 respectively almost doubling his production. So I will take that.

    My point is this. Could Larry Sander not block shots or rebound the ball before this year? Yes, yet for two years he rotted away on the bench hardly getting opportunities (while I screamed for his playing time). Was he extremely raw? Yes, did he do bad things on the court sometimes, yes. But as a player you cannot learn until you make mistakes. Young players need a learning curve and we in Milwaukee don't give players that.

    We make them sit at the end of the bench for the first 2-3 years of their career then play them their final year of their contract finding out that they are a decent player just in time for that player to want the hell out of Milwaukee.

    I am sorry Crew but on a team filled with C, C+ level talent at best there is no way you're going to convince me that Tobias should not be playing. I just don't see how you can excuse someone like Mbah Moute and his horrendous offensive game(yah his shot it better, but he has no idea how to play offense whatsoever) but your not willing to give a young kid who has the potential to help this team in an area of serious need a shot.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    My point is that if everyone waits until they get a great, high percentage look, you're going to have a ton of shot clock violations. Look at a guy like James harden. His shooting percentages are down from last year. The reason for that is because he's asked to do more within the offense. He just cat sit back an have Durant and Westbrook create shots and hit open jumpers. He has to create his own, thus his percentages are down. Usually when someone's calling card is being an efficient scorer, it means they are at best te third option.

    I'm not criticizing him as a bad player. I like that he takes efficient shots and I'm not encouraging him to start jacking up shots. But to act like he should be a bigger part of the offense and if he starts to take on a bigger scoring load that he'll remain as efficient is a false assumption in my mind.

    I really don't think Tobias has earned that many minutes. He's not quick enough to guard opposing 3s and he's not going to crack the rotation as a 4. I would rater have dunleavy or even luc Richard than Tobias at this point.
    I don't think anyone expects Harris to ever be better than a 3rd scoring option. With him its not about being a bigger part of the offense as it is about just getting more minutes. If he can play a similar role for more minutes, then he could put up some very nice numbers.

  8. #8
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    You can't bench Ellis. Every team needs a guy who can drive and put up shots and that's what he does. Without him our offense is stagnant. Dunleavy is a catch and shoot guy not a gunner who can drive and make the other teams defense respect that driving ability. Harris should be traded, he is what he is and I think he's a guy who won't really progress anymore than a 3rd or 4th option. Henson as people have said, needs to bulk up. We can't have him and Sanders on the court chasing blocks all day anyways Serge Ibaka style. We need noth of them to be able to defend the rim and play actual D, which Sanders has improved on and Henson eventually will too next season. He will get his time don't worry. Trade Harris and Gooden to get rid of his albatross contract and get a rotation guy and a pick.
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  9. #9
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    If you're Tobias Harris and you're only going to be at best a third scoring option, then you need to at least a decent defender. Tobias is a pretty poor defender and on a team o relatively weak perimeter defenders, your small forward needs to defend. Tobias has poor foot quickness and can't stay in front if his guy. Even in scrub time he's letting scrub small forwards blow past him.

    And time, I think Larry sanders is a poor example for you to use because he's a guy who had apparently improved his game in practice without a ton of playing time his first couple seasons.

    Maybe it's just me but I don't see Harris really being that great unless he can improve his foot quickness. On a team looking to make the playoffs, we can't afford to have 3 bad perimeter defensers on the floor at once.

  10. #10
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    Harris is very efficient scorer though. If Jennings and Ellis get yanked for chucking bricks rather see Harris get those shots most nights. Him and Henson are efficient.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by crewfan13 View Post
    If you're Tobias Harris and you're only going to be at best a third scoring option, then you need to at least a decent defender. Tobias is a pretty poor defender and on a team o relatively weak perimeter defenders, your small forward needs to defend. Tobias has poor foot quickness and can't stay in front if his guy. Even in scrub time he's letting scrub small forwards blow past him.

    And time, I think Larry sanders is a poor example for you to use because he's a guy who had apparently improved his game in practice without a ton of playing time his first couple seasons.

    Maybe it's just me but I don't see Harris really being that great unless he can improve his foot quickness. On a team looking to make the playoffs, we can't afford to have 3 bad perimeter defensers on the floor at once.
    We'll have to agree to disagree I guess on this one my friend. I guess only time will tell with Harris.
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  12. #12
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    Harris is more efficient because our guards hit him when he is open. Ellis is our only guy on the floor who can make something happen when nobody is open. Dunleavy and Harris aren't going to make those plays, they are going to wait for open looks that might never happen. I'd rather have Ellis on the floor and the improved Luc at the 3. Tobias is a tweener at the 3 and it hurts us on D. It's great that he is efficient but at what point is that efficiency better than having him get blown by on defense because his matchup is quicker than he is. Our team is made up of guys who don't fit together. We have guys that can run the floor like BJ, Ellis, Udoh and Sanders, and we have guys like Gooden who are better with a traditional offense. I'd want to see us try to pull a Nelly style run and gun offense like the Warriors had with BD5, Jrich and Ellis. I think we would be a much better team if we did.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILLERHIGHLIFE View Post
    Harris is very efficient scorer though. If Jennings and Ellis get yanked for chucking bricks rather see Harris get those shots most nights. Him and Henson are efficient.
    But that's exactly my point. If you yank Ellis and Jennings for chucking up shots but expect Harris to continue to be as efficient as he is, you will be mistaken. Like the guy below me said, the reason he's efficient is because he isn't asked to do too much. Once you yank Jennings and Ellis, then we no longer have creators and someone will have to do something they aren't good at, which is create shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroncoBuck View Post
    Harris is more efficient because our guards hit him when he is open. Ellis is our only guy on the floor who can make something happen when nobody is open. Dunleavy and Harris aren't going to make those plays, they are going to wait for open looks that might never happen. I'd rather have Ellis on the floor and the improved Luc at the 3. Tobias is a tweener at the 3 and it hurts us on D. It's great that he is efficient but at what point is that efficiency better than having him get blown by on defense because his matchup is quicker than he is. Our team is made up of guys who don't fit together. We have guys that can run the floor like BJ, Ellis, Udoh and Sanders, and we have guys like Gooden who are better with a traditional offense. I'd want to see us try to pull a Nelly style run and gun offense like the Warriors had with BD5, Jrich and Ellis. I think we would be a much better team if we did.
    I agree. Harris might be a solid price, but at least right now in his career, he's a peicr that needs to be hidden on defense. We don't have that luxury at small forward. And I agree on your assessment of the team too, it's like the island of misfit toys. We have a bunch of solid, nice players but they don't compliment one another very well. Henson and sanders would benefit from playing along side a more traditional center who can bang inside while they can float and block shots. Ellis and Jennings need to play along side a bigger guard who can shoot and defend. Luc Richard needs to play on a team with 3 to 4 somewhat legit scorers where he can focus on defense and only maybe hitting a few jumpers here and there.

  14. #14
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    well sanders went what 20 8 n 6 n henson went 12 n 11 tonight their both pretty much the same player besides henson's got that outside j! and if we started henson and sanders those are 2 bigs that can get out and run the floor along with tobias! so if we do turn into a running team would u rather see a guy who pulls up n jacks 18 ft shoots n barely shoots 40% or someone who can run to the 3pt line n hit 5-9 3pt shots on any given night than let beno n ellis come off the bench n run the offense?

    And if we cant have tobias start he should at least play the back up 3 n let beno n ellis or even dunleavy get him shots!


    and whoever says tobias would be less effective without jennings or ellis GTFO here with that bc dude can get down low n battle not to mention get his shot off in the post everytime down the floor if he wanted. Also whenever he's close to the rim if he or a teamate miss's a shot the guy jumps like hes on a trampoline n goes n gets those boards and than finishes
    This thread right here is why i stay out of the nba main forum on psd lol
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  15. #15
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    So you're trying to tell me that if Ellis and Jennings were to not play and Tobias were to play, he would continue to score just as "efficiently." So you guys are saying that our offense would be better off without Ellis and or Jennings and starting Tobias? He woul have to make the offense better than with those two because he makes the defense worse.

    Also, does anyone else find it a bit strange that even with skilea gone, we still don't play Harris? Boylan looks committed to giving Henson more minutes and I'm thinking he's going to shore up the rotation and define roles more than skiles did. I wouldn't be surprised if Tobias doesn't factor too much into that rotation.

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