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  1. #526
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    Nvm..
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-20-2013 at 04:33 AM.

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I agree with your point that we need to give guys a chance to tell us who they're going to be. It's too early to define Baxter and Nieuenhuis but I'm fairly certain Duda has shown us all he's got. Stranger things have happened though.

    I just want to see Hairston on this team if only to give them a competent right handed bat other than Wright. And if that costs them a few extra mill to ensure him not going to another team so be it.

    Will Hairston make or break this team one way or the other? Absolutely not. I fully concede Hairston will only make them less bad.

    But if I'm going to pay attention to the Mets over the course of 162 games, less bad is considerably better than more bad.

    Just pay him already.

    2011.
    2012.

    Flip.
    Flop.

    Hard for me to forget the thrashing you gave SH in 2011.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    I'm quoting the first post of this thread. I expected lots of people to make excuses for the inexcusable. I'm not surprised.

    What I've been saying for a few years now should be obvious to everyone. Look at this roster. The whole reason this management was brought in was to sell a low budget, rotten team to fans so the Wilpons could drain money from the Mets and restore their personal Ponzi wealth.

    Thing is, the only way some people can deal with the situation is by digging around for reasons to justify the unjustifiable. The idea people are finding arguments not to sign a proven Major League outfielder for an outfield that has none is amazing. I feel like I'm watching some kind of psychological experiment on conformity - how many people will toe the Mets/Wilpons line, regardless of what it is.

    By the way, according to Fangraphs 1 WAR is worth $4.5 million a year, so even if Hairston regresses to his supposed mean he's still a bargain.
    Nobody is excusing the Wilpons.

    They are supporting the direction of the team based on where they were in the standings last year and how young they are.

    This is what rebuilding teams do. Look at the Cubs, Astros, and Minnesota for example. Those are larger markets in MLB and yet they are taking the same approach to rebuilding that we are.

    It's never a popular one but that's what it is.

    Either way, everyone knows that if this team has intentions on winning in the next 2-3 years the Wilpons will have to spend money. Whether that happens or not we will soon find out.

    In regards to your fangraphs point, do you know how many players in MLB can produce 1 WAR in any given season?

    Andres Torres had a 1.7 fWAR last year, is he worth nearly 10 million dollars annually if we are using that standard?

    I didn't think so..
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-20-2013 at 06:39 AM.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    2011.
    2012.

    Flip.
    Flop.

    Hard for me to forget the thrashing you gave SH in 2011.
    I flip flopped as SH flip flopped. He clearly is not the same hitter he was in San Diego 2010 or with us in April 2011.

    But you knew that. What's absolutely hysterical Dug is that if SA last week signed SH for 2/8, you'd be telling the entire forum what a great move it was.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-20-2013 at 06:54 AM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  5. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I flip flopped as SH flip flopped. He clearly is not the same hitter he was in San Diego 2010 or with us in April 2011.

    But you knew that. What's absolutely hysterical Dug is that if SA last week signed SH for 2/8, you'd be telling the entire forum what a great move it was.


    Yes he would, they all would.

  6. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by SILVER SEAVER View Post
    I think for what the A's and Orioles accomplished last season should give just about every GM hope that a team that has young talent sprinkled with some veteran free agents that anything can happen. This team with a few of the right players can land a wild card spot and then once in the playoffs anything can happen. Can Bourn, Morgan, Kearns, Hairston, Lohse, Capps, Braden or Marcum help this team get to the postseason if the other players stay healthy and do what they are capable of doing, sure. The Mets have no outfielders knocking down that door to land a starting job in the outfield for the big team so free agency is the route to go along with much needed help in that pen.




    Yes. If you're standing pat then you're going backwards. Washington is betting better and we're falling further behind, the KNOW the Braves own us anyway.

  7. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Yes he would, they all would.
    I don't think anyone aside from a very few would be doing a jump for joy if they re-signed Hairston.

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I don't think anyone aside from a very few would be doing a jump for joy if they re-signed Hairston.

    They'd find a way to get on board.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I don't think anyone aside from a very few would be doing a jump for joy if they re-signed Hairston.
    Probably not jump for joy but i can think of one particular poster who would explain to us in great detail why it was precisely the right move that needed to be done.

    And no, I'm not talking about myself.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Nobody is excusing the Wilpons.

    They are supporting the direction of the team based on where they were in the standings last year and how young they are.

    This is what rebuilding teams do. Look at the Cubs, Astros, and Minnesota for example. Those are larger markets in MLB and yet they are taking the same approach to rebuilding that we are.

    It's never a popular one but that's what it is.

    Either way, everyone knows that if this team has intentions on winning in the next 2-3 years the Wilpons will have to spend money. Whether that happens or not we will soon find out.

    In regards to your fangraphs point, do you know how many players in MLB can produce 1 WAR in any given season?

    Andres Torres had a 1.7 fWAR last year, is he worth nearly 10 million dollars annually if we are using that standard?

    I didn't think so..
    Maybe that's why the Giants just signed Torres for $2 million. By current free agent standards they're getting respectable value. If Torres is worth $2 million Hairston is worth $4 million.

    Other than that, what the Mets are doing is not "what rebuilding teams do". When Cashen was rebuilding the team in the 1980s he signed a lot of Major League outside talent to fill the team while young players developed. They also didn't draft based on who would sign cheap.

    The Twins play in a small market, don't have a regional sports network and still outspend the Mets.

    The Cubs? You mean the same Cubs that just signed Edwin Jackson for $52 million? Losing has become a cherished institution there. They haven't won in 104 years and continue to draw. With television their revenue still doesn't approach the Mets. Nevertheless, they're spending and trying to give their fans a watchable product.

    The Astros? Here's a thread from their board regarding their payroll called "Boycott The Astros".

    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...-Astros/page2&

    It's like any given thread on this board only the Mets revenue is enormously higher than the Astros.

    As for the Mets… Rebuilding teams do not let players like Reyes walk for nothing, they don't fail to sign their 2nd round picks over $68,000, they don't acquire just 3 blue chip prospects over 3 off-seasons and call it a rebuild.

    And still you have guys "supporting the direction of the team". The only direction I see is down into the ground as the Wilpons pocket Mets/SNY revenue and rebuild the stolen money they lost. It's amazing how many fans are eager to be deceived by this cynical strategy.

  11. #536
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    As for the Mets… Rebuilding teams do not let players like Reyes walk for nothing, they don't fail to sign their 2nd round picks over $68,000, they don't acquire just 3 blue chip prospects over 3 off-seasons and call it a rebuild.

    And still you have guys "supporting the direction of the team". The only direction I see is down into the ground as the Wilpons pocket Mets/SNY revenue and rebuild the stolen money they lost. It's amazing how many fans are eager to be deceived by this cynical strategy.


    >>>Boom.

  12. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Maybe that's why the Giants just signed Torres for $2 million. By current free agent standards they're getting respectable value. If Torres is worth $2 million Hairston is worth $4 million.

    Other than that, what the Mets are doing is not "what rebuilding teams do". When Cashen was rebuilding the team in the 1980s he signed a lot of Major League outside talent to fill the team while young players developed. They also didn't draft based on who would sign cheap.

    The Twins play in a small market, don't have a regional sports network and still outspend the Mets.

    The Cubs? You mean the same Cubs that just signed Edwin Jackson for $52 million? Losing has become a cherished institution there. They haven't won in 104 years and continue to draw. With television their revenue still doesn't approach the Mets. Nevertheless, they're spending and trying to give their fans a watchable product.

    The Astros? Here's a thread from their board regarding their payroll called "Boycott The Astros".

    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...-Astros/page2&

    It's like any given thread on this board only the Mets revenue is enormously higher than the Astros.

    As for the Mets… Rebuilding teams do not let players like Reyes walk for nothing, they don't fail to sign their 2nd round picks over $68,000, they don't acquire just 3 blue chip prospects over 3 off-seasons and call it a rebuild.

    And still you have guys "supporting the direction of the team". The only direction I see is down into the ground as the Wilpons pocket Mets/SNY revenue and rebuild the stolen money they lost. It's amazing how many fans are eager to be deceived by this cynical strategy.
    Just because they don't have the television markets and their own network doesn't mean they aren't larger markets.

    Houston is the 4th biggest city population wise in the United States, Chicago the second. There are large baseball audiences in both towns and states.

    I don't buy the cherished institution argument either. They are the lovable losers because of their past ineptitude but bringing in Theo Epstein was a move made in order to win (The Jackson move wasn't a good one btw)

    As for the Astros, yeah ownership like the Mets is bad but there are other teams rebuilding. I was just using those as examples. Look at Seattle and Colorado.

    Yes we can say the Mets should be afforded luxuries those teams aren't and that's entirely true but i don't get your point about defending the Wilpons when nobody is.

    You are strawmanning my point.

    What people are defending is the direction of this team based on where they are, how young they are, and who's available currently.

    Nobody disagrees that things have to change financially in order for this team to be competitive. Just why change now when there are minimal impact FAs out there and this team is most certainly guaranteed at best 70-75 wins even with adding the likes of a Scott Hairston and a Carl Pavano.

    Scott Hairston and Carl Pavano are not making this team a contender in August. You are talking about guys that on their best day add 3 wins to this team. In fact, Pavano had a negative rWAR last year. I would rather see the Baxters, Kirks, and Hefners of the world if we are getting that type of production.

    As for the rebuilding argument, not dealing Reyes was a mistake but i really can't complain about not signing certain draft picks when they get that money back as part of this year's pool of talent. Is Stanky really gonna make or break us when they already have a plethora of SP talent in their farm system?

    The Mets signed every other player they took in the first ten rounds.

    And how would you like the Mets to acquire more blue chippers when they only have a certain amount of elite major league talent?

    Reyes was the only other player on this team in recent time they could have acquired blue chip compensation for.

    They got the most they were going to get out of Beltran and Dickey (especially Beltran who they stole from the Giants)
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-20-2013 at 10:21 AM.

  13. #538
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    Oh and btw when is the last time the Mets farm system had this type of depth or was ranked this high?

    I certainly can't remember any time in recent history.

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Oh and btw when is the last time the Mets farm system had this type of depth or was ranked this high?

    I certainly can't remember any time in recent history.
    That's not saying much.

    http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/01...rm-system.html

    Jan 3 2013
    Minor League Stuff
    Baseball America: Mets Still Bottom 15 Farm System

    Catcher Travis d’Arnaud and righthander Noah Syndergaard were the top two prospects left in the Blue Jays system after Toronto made the Jose Reyes/Mark Buehrle trade with the Marlins, and now they’ve gone to the Mets as part of the Dickey package.

    D’Arnaud is the second-best catching prospect in baseball, behind only Mike Zunino of the Mariners, while Syndergaard is a potential No. 2 starter. They’be be New York’s second- and third-best prospects, fitting between righthander Zack Wheeler and shortstop Gavin Cecchini.

    Dickey is the reigning National League Cy Young Award winner and strikeout king, but I’m still surprised the Mets were able to extract Syndergaard as the second player in the deal. Adding him and d’Arnaud gives a significant boost to a system that was as thin as any in the National League before the trade.

    New York still lacks upper-level talent, but the addition of two blue-chip prospects boosts their system into the 18-20 range.

  15. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    That depends on the author and it's all subjective.

    Other baseball writers have had the Mets farm system ranked higher.

    The Mets have minor league talent especially pitching.

    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...pects-Listings

    This organization has made enormous strides of late, and the addition of D'Arnaud and Syndergaard is frosting on the cake.

    The obvious strength is pitching, and they have a lot of it. Both Wheeler and Syndergaard are potential top-of-the-rotation starters, backing up the now-graduated Matt Harvey who was everything that could have been expected last summer and more. Hard-throwers dot the rosters. . .Familia, Fulmer, Tapia, Mateo, Montero. . .note particularly the products of the Latin American scouting operation. And there is more behind them, the Brooklyn Cyclones starting rotation was outstanding. But it isn't just the high-ceiling guys, they have polished arms, too. Guys like Verrett or DeGrom could sneak up on us the same way that McHugh did.

    Of course, as Mets fans well-know from history, pitching prospects are a volatile commodity. They can explode in your face very easily, or fizzle into nothing like a drop of water on Mercury. That's why you need as much depth as possible, and they've developed that.

    Hitting, on the other hand, is a weakness. The addition of D'Arnaud gives them an impact player ready to help in the majors, something they've needed. Flores made a lot of progress this year, but it is still an open question how he fits into a long-term lineup. Nimmo and Cecchini, the two most recent first round picks, both have the potential to be regulars but are years away from being ready. There are guys who look like potential role players, but adding more bats to the system needs to be a priority. Hopefully the new Latin American investments like Lupo and Rosario will show a better feel for the strike zone than the previous group.

    In short, Mets fans should be very happy about the pitching depth in the system, but they also need to be realistic about the hitting. As cool as R.A. Dickey's breakthrough was, the Mets took a long-shot reclamation project that panned out and turned him into two blue chip prospects. It was the right long-term move for the system.
    That was Sickel's description of the Met's farm system.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-20-2013 at 08:24 AM.

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