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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    The thing is that neither of those guys did replaced the production of those 2 guys, they replaced the production of other bench players.


    ...and again the pen having issues was a reason why they were not as good, but not the SOLE REASON, the fact that in 2006 they had a superior offense because not only the core 4 guys performed well, but so did complementary players such as the 2 guys being mention.
    I'm not disputing the contributions made by Chavez and Valentin. But you're never going to convince me each one individually was more valuable than Delgado.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'm not disputing the contributions made by Chavez and Valentin. But you're never going to convince me each one individually was more valuable than Delgado.
    At their respective positions for that one season, yes they were more valuable.

    Positions aside, of course Delgado is the better player.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I'm not disputing the contributions made by Chavez and Valentin. But you're never going to convince me each one individually was more valuable than Delgado.
    Nobody is saying they were dude, I am saying that in that year those 2 guys gave the Mets excellent value because they produced in all facets of their game, while Delgado's value was solely tied to his bat and offensive game.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Nobody is saying they were dude, I am saying that in that year those 2 guys gave the Mets excellent value because they produced in all facets of their game, while Delgado's value was solely tied to his bat and offensive game.
    That's kind of what WAR is saying, isn't it?
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    That's kind of what WAR is saying, isn't it?
    Again you have to understand WAR, as YS mention WAR uses positional adjustment since playing 1st base in not as difficult to play as center field is. Also base running is taken into the mix and obviously Delgado clogged up the bases while those 2 other guys did not.

    Is hard to see with your eyes how many runs these guys saved with their defense and how many they produced with their base running skills because there is not old school stat to show that.

    With the bat non of those 2 guys was as valuable as Delgado, but that was his whole game he did not add, but cost the team in the other parts of his game. Those other 2 guys did help the team in all facets of the game.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    See people will give them credit for getting that kind of return for those 2 players and rightfully so, but at the same time is not like he traded trash for those prospects. They traded the freaking Cy Young and and a guy that was having a great freaking season the year before that.

    They traded all star players for prospects and regardless of what the media or fans think or suggest they could of gotten, those 2 guys had excellent value to teams trying to win NOW and those teams always will pay high for those guys. It is something that has happen all the time in baseball.
    Just a question...what do you think rebuilding is?

    I am just as tired off talking about this as you are...but what I see is a GM who has been installed against the owners will. Who is nothing more than a GM to take the hits necessary from a rabid fan base who live and die by the mantra "what have you done for me lately". SA has been used by the Wilpons to deal players like Beltran and Dickey (possibly Reyes and Wright...depending on who you talk to). To wade through very lean budget years, all while putting a smile on his face. So when the team has finally cleared any budget concerns, he will be replaced with the current "yes-man" Wilpon favorite.

    I have said this from the beginning.

    Now I have also been a supporter of the rebuild (I just never thought it would really happen in this market), no matter the GM. I am not concerned with flipping the prospects they got for Beltran and Dickey into now players. It was clear since 2010, this team was no longer a "now team". So with so many young players still on this team...I don't see why SA has to replace all of Minaya's work.

    Now since 2010 it has been very clear that this team was not going to go down the road of GM's past. (Trading for now-players). So why all of a sudden this was supposed to be? I don't buy it. This is more instant gratification rearing it's head again. What I see SA has built, is simply a young team thrown together. I don;t even see a stable core as of yet, and it's become obvious that the young players SA has brought in, he wants to keep and put on the field.

    Is this a good plan? idk yet. I would rather wait to see if we can build a stable core first before we start flipping prospects for names.

    THANK YOU PROKY!!!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    That's kind of what WAR is saying, isn't it?
    Yeah, it is. I think you can question the accuracy of the UZR part of that, which had both players way above average defensively. Maybe that over-rates them slightly.

    But I think it's probably accurate that Endy and Valentin (and LoDuca as well) were each at least nearly as valuable as Delgado that year. That doesn't mean that would typically be the case. But Endy hit over .300 that year. A guy who plays defense like that in CF, and puts up above average offense, is typically going to be worth as much as a 1B who hits a lot of HR, but only hits .265, and plays below average defense.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    That's kind of what WAR is saying, isn't it?
    Yes, but it's not as crazy as it seems IMO. If you look at Valentin, for instance, it will be difficult to find too many second basemen in baseball that put up the offensive numbers he did in 2006. Then, factor in the defense, and it really put his contribution over the top. Delgado was great, but plenty of first basemen put up comparable numbers, or better. Pujols, Berkman, Howard, Morneau, Swisher, Teixeira...the list goes on and on.
    "We're snakebitten, baby." --Fred Wilpon

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Yeah, it is. I think you can question the accuracy of the UZR part of that, which had both players way above average defensively. Maybe that over-rates them slightly.

    But I think it's probably accurate that Endy and Valentin (and LoDuca as well) were each at least nearly as valuable as Delgado that year. That doesn't mean that would typically be the case. But Endy hit over .300 that year. A guy who plays defense like that in CF, and puts up above average offense, is typically going to be worth as much as a 1B who hits a lot of HR, but only hits .265, and plays below average defense.
    I can see it with Valentin as he pretty much put up a career year that season. But Endy was a part time player.

    And even Valentin rode the bench for the most of the first month of the season.

    EDIT: Yeah, it's silly. Delgado had nearly 100 points higher in OBP while putting up nearly 200 more plate appearances. I get that Valentin had value; I get that he was a very good second baseman and I get that Delgado was not a very good first baseman.

    But even after you add everything up, there is no way Valentin was more valuable than Delgado. The mathematical formula is flawed and this example illustrates it.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-01-2013 at 11:36 PM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I can see it with Valentin as he pretty much put up a career year that season. But Endy was a part time player.

    And even Valentin rode the bench for the most of the first month of the season.

    EDIT: Yeah, it's silly. Delgado had nearly 100 points higher in OBP while putting up nearly 200 more plate appearances. I get that Valentin had value; I get that he was a very good second baseman and I get that Delgado was not a very good first baseman.

    But even after you add everything up, there is no way Valentin was more valuable than Delgado. The mathematical formula is flawed and this example illustrates it.
    Endy's defensive numbers are mind boggling. I don't know whether to believe them or not. Seeing him play though, he really was exceptional.

  11. #71
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    And we're the dopes.

  12. #72
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    I think I should state that even though I was and am one of the bigger Omar supporters here, it was obviously time for a change when Sandy was hired, and I 100% supported the decision to hire Alderson. However, I've had two big problems with Sandy so far.

    First, there have been plenty of cheap moves that could have been made to improve the ballclub (notably this offseason) that he simply did not look into. IMO we are still in desperate need of a left handed reliever. Banking on Edgin and Carson for a full season is not smart, especially with bats in our division like Howard, Utely, McCann, Harper, possibly LaRoche. The only addition to the OF has been Colin freakin Cowgill.

    Second, I think the rebuilding process should be further along than it is. I'd rather see money spent on guys like Francisco and Rauch be spent on someone like Cespedes or other players that will contribute to the future of this ballclub.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Piazza View Post
    But I have to say that my time with the Mets wouldn't have been the same without the greatest fans in the world. One of the hardest moments of my career, was walking off the field at Shea Stadium and saying goodbye. My relationship with you made my time in New York the happiest of my career and for that, I will always be grateful.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5+7=DYNASTY!!! View Post
    I think I should state that even though I was and am one of the bigger Omar supporters here, it was obviously time for a change when Sandy was hired, and I 100% supported the decision to hire Alderson. However, I've had two big problems with Sandy so far.

    First, there have been plenty of cheap moves that could have been made to improve the ballclub (notably this offseason) that he simply did not look into. IMO we are still in desperate need of a left handed reliever. Banking on Edgin and Carson for a full season is not smart, especially with bats in our division like Howard, Utely, McCann, Harper, possibly LaRoche. The only addition to the OF has been Colin freakin Cowgill.

    Second, I think the rebuilding process should be further along than it is. I'd rather see money spent on guys like Francisco and Rauch be spent on someone like Cespedes or other players that will contribute to the future of this ballclub.

    Bingo. Great post. They're just using the 'rebuild' excuse not to spend any money whatsoever.

    They only got fat frank and Rauch and made that failed trade with SFG, because they had to do something after Jose left.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    ...while others lack basic skepticism and a critical eye.
    Bingo.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5+7=DYNASTY!!! View Post
    Second, I think the rebuilding process should be further along than it is. I'd rather see money spent on guys like Francisco and Rauch be spent on someone like Cespedes or other players that will contribute to the future of this ballclub.
    Yeah, it's been awhile since we signed a top international talent. And I don't mean a 17-year old out of the DR, I mean a more advanced guy out of Japan, or Cuba, etc. We signed Kaz Matsui in 2004, and then Takahashi/Igarashi in 2010. That's it.

    We haven't been in on the bidding for guys like Chapman, Cespedes, Leonys Martin, Yasiel Puig, Jorge Soler, Yu Darvish, Hiroki Kuroda, Junichi Tazawa, Koji Uehara, or Daisuke Matsusaka. Or even low budget under the radar guys like Aioki (who we could use in the outfield right now).

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