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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    He's a fan blogger.

    It's like linking to "bleacher report". This isn't Andy McCollough from the Star Ledger.
    He is a Mets fan and has expressed similar feelings to what other Mets fans have expressed.

    ...and honestly I relate more to what a Mets fan feels, than any random writer.

  2. #47
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    It looks as though the "Plan" is this...Load up the farm system, let the newbs develop, keep the suckers err i mean fans on the hook by holding onto Wright and talking in tongues during the off season...once the farmhands have developed...bring them all up...Wright become the veteran leader of a "Young Guns" team that...IF all goes as planned can be competitive from 2015-2020 with a payroll of <60Million...Wilpons get richer...fans get a competitive team...prices go up...wilpons laugh all the way to the bank while we praise Sandy and pay $45 for upper deck seats without so much as a second thought...

    Nietzsche and Machiavelli(the real one not Tupac)Would be proud...

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    It looks as though the "Plan" is this...Load up the farm system, let the newbs develop, keep the suckers err i mean fans on the hook by holding onto Wright and talking in tongues during the off season...once the farmhands have developed...bring them all up...Wright become the veteran leader of a "Young Guns" team that...IF all goes as planned can be competitive from 2015-2020 with a payroll of <60Million...Wilpons get richer...fans get a competitive team...prices go up...wilpons laugh all the way to the bank while we praise Sandy and pay $45 for upper deck seats without so much as a second thought...

    Nietzsche and Machiavelli(the real one not Tupac)Would be proud...
    Could not put it in any better words.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Could not put it in any better words.
    In short, the "rope-a-dope".

    Maybe that guys just a fan blogger, but that's a great analogy he came up with to sum it up.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    It looks as though the "Plan" is this...Load up the farm system, let the newbs develop, keep the suckers err i mean fans on the hook by holding onto Wright and talking in tongues during the off season...once the farmhands have developed...bring them all up...Wright become the veteran leader of a "Young Guns" team that...IF all goes as planned can be competitive from 2015-2020 with a payroll of <60Million...Wilpons get richer...fans get a competitive team...prices go up...wilpons laugh all the way to the bank while we praise Sandy and pay $45 for upper deck seats without so much as a second thought...

    Nietzsche and Machiavelli(the real one not Tupac)Would be proud...
    Yep.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  6. #51
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by sick of it all View Post
    is about building a winner period and if you buy into his plan of building up the farm and building a contender, then you have to also understand that it will not take 2-3 years, but more like 5-6 years and the problem the blogger and some other fans have is that sandy has said quite the opposite. He continuously talks about not punting the season and some moves have been made or not made for the sole purpose to win a couple of more games and that is something i have had issues with so far.

    I am more than fine in waiting years to see a winner and i am one of the few guys around here that will enjoy watching the youth even if they struggle.

    ...but the difference between that 2006 and now is what the other dude mention. In that year aside from the big guys that were brought in they had many other guys who were hidden gems.

    Valentin had a 3.1 war
    chavez had a 3.1 war

    think about that for a second, that was more than what delgado's war was that year at 3.0. I think many fans expected more of that from sandy and so far have not gotten that.
    thank you!!!

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post

    ...but the difference between that 2006 and now is what the other dude mention. In that year aside from the big guys that were brought in they had many other guys who were hidden gems.

    Valentin had a 3.1 WAR
    Chavez had a 3.1 WAR

    Think about that for a second, that was more than what Delgado's WAR was that year at 3.0. I think many fans expected more of that from Sandy and so far have not gotten that.
    Those numbers illustrate the problems using WAR to compare relative value of players. Clearly, neither Valentin or Chavez were as valuable to that team as Delgado.

    Still, you make a great point about Omar's ability to bring in strong complementary players. While i wouldn't compare either to Delgado in terms of presence, both Chavez and Valentin were very valuable nonetheless.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    He is a Mets fan and has expressed similar feelings to what other Mets fans have expressed.

    ...and honestly I relate more to what a Mets fan feels, than any random writer.
    I find most fan bloggers whether they are positive like Cerrone or negative to have no great insight.

    As you previously said it takes time to rebuild.

    And as Mike Shanahan said about the Redskins, it takes more than 2 years to tear down a team to build a winner. He told Daniel Snyder that if he wasn't willing to make that type of commitment time wise then he wasn't the correct hire. Not once did the Redskins ever say they were rebuilding.

    I can't think of any GMs of a major market say that they were punting on a season. It just doesn't happen, but if you look at the tea leaves you can see that they are.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Those numbers illustrate the problems using WAR to compare relative value of players. Clearly, neither Valentin or Chavez were as valuable to that team as Delgado.

    Still, you make a great point about Omar's ability to bring in strong complementary players. While i wouldn't compare either to Delgado in terms of presence, both Chavez and Valentin were very valuable nonetheless.
    See this is the problem with old school guys such as yourself when you dismiss WAR, Delgado's bat is what had value and not much else.

    Valentin and Chavez had value aside from their bats, they were phenomenal on defense as well, they were excellent complementary players on that team. Is hard to quantify how much value those guys from the eye test and old school stats such as homers and rbi's.

    Look at it this way in 2007-08 when the Mets did not have those kind of complementary players like Valentin and Chavez to help the core of 4 the team did not do as well. Obviously there were other reasons as to why those teams failed, but not having the production that Valentin/Chavez provided hurt the team. In reality it probably cost them 1-3 more wins throughout the year not having that kind of production from complementary players and that meant the Mets did not made the playoffs for those 2 years.

    The Valentin/Chavez duo had a combined 6.2 WAR in 06

    The Alou/Castillo duo had a combined 3.9 WAR in 07

    The Church/Castillo duo had a combined 2.4 WAR in 08

    The Mets won more games in 06 than in 07/08 due to this particular reason as well as the pen being horrible.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    I find most fan bloggers whether they are positive like Cerrone or negative to have no great insight.

    As you previously said it takes time to rebuild.

    And as Mike Shanahan said about the Redskins, it takes more than 2 years to tear down a team to build a winner. He told Daniel Snyder that if he wasn't willing to make that type of commitment time wise then he wasn't the correct hire. Not once did the Redskins ever say they were rebuilding.

    I can't think of any GMs of a major market say that they were punting on a season. It just doesn't happen, but if you look at the tea leaves you can see that they are.
    We are not looking for great insight though from these guys, we and some bloggers are expressing their thoughts on the situation and is quite clear as you hint to it yourself.

    ...and yes no GM will ever admit that, but that does not mean that we fans can't call out their bull ****.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    See this is the problem with old school guys such as yourself when you dismiss WAR, Delgado's bat is what had value and not much else.

    Valentin and Chavez had value aside from their bats, they were phenomenal on defense as well, they were excellent complementary players on that team. Is hard to quantify how much value those guys from the eye test and old school stats such as homers and rbi's.

    Look at it this way in 2007-08 when the Mets did not have those kind of complementary players like Valentin and Chavez to help the core of 4 the team did not do as well. Obviously there were other reasons as to why those teams failed, but not having the production that Valentin/Chavez provided hurt the team. In reality it probably cost them 1-3 more wins throughout the year not having that kind of production from complementary players and that meant the Mets did not made the playoffs for those 2 years.


    The Valentin/Chavez duo had a combined 6.2 WAR in 06

    The Alou/Castillo duo had a combined 3.9 WAR in 07

    The Church/Castillo duo had a combined 2.4 WAR in 08

    The Mets won more games in 06 than in 07/08 due to this particular reason as well as the pen being horrible.
    Completely disagree my good man. If the bullpen was constant, the 07-08 Mets would have won at least as many games as the 06 team, despite the production of the Alou/Church/Castillo trio.

    Similarly, switch the 06 bullpen with the 07-08 group and there was no way that team would have won close to 98 games.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  12. #57
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    Valentin and Chavez had higher WARs not only because they provided excellent defense, but also because of the positional value adjustment. Delgado being a 1st baseman makes him less valuable.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Completely disagree my good man. If the bullpen was constant, the 07-08 Mets would have won at least as many games as the 06 team, despite the production of the Alou/Church/Castillo trio.

    Similarly, switch the 06 bullpen with the 07-08 group and there was no way that team would have won close to 98 games.
    Not really, it was the fact that that 06 teams was much better all around, not just in the pen.

    Mets in 06 scored 834 runs, in 07 they scored 804 and in 08 they scored 799. Given the fact that that teams scored 30 or more runs shows just how much the offensive contributions of those guys were missed. Had the Mets equal that amount of runs again would of meant that they would of won at least 3-5 more games.

    Not having the production they had from complementary players such as Chavez and Valentin did hurt the team period. The pen being bad as another big reason not just the only reason.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sick Of It All View Post
    Not really, it was the fact that that 06 teams was much better all around, not just in the pen.

    Mets in 06 scored 834 runs, in 07 they scored 804 and in 08 they scored 799. Given the fact that that teams scored 30 or more runs shows just how much the offensive contributions of those guys were missed. Had the Mets equal that amount of runs again would of meant that they would of won at least 3-5 more games.

    Not having the production they had from complementary players such as Chavez and Valentin did hurt the team period. The pen being bad as another big reason not just the only reason.
    No. In both seasons but especially in 2007, the team down the stretch held numerous leads in late innings but couldn't hold them. What were they up, 7 games with 14 left? That meltdown was due to the bullpen, not a shutdown of the offense.

    Besides, both Valentin and Chavez proved to be easily replaced by Damon Easley and Fernando Tatis. Let me know when we replace Delgado.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    No. In both seasons but especially in 2007, the team down the stretch held numerous leads in late innings but couldn't hold them. What were they up, 7 games with 14 left? That meltdown was due to the bullpen, not a shutdown of the offense.

    Besides, both Valentin and Chavez proved to be easily replaced by Damon Easley and Fernando Tatis. Let me know when we replace Delgado.

    The thing is that neither of those guys did replaced the production of those 2 guys, they replaced the production of other bench players.


    ...and again the pen having issues was a reason why they were not as good, but not the SOLE REASON, the fact that in 2006 they had a superior offense because not only the core 4 guys performed well, but so did complementary players such as the 2 guys being mention.

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