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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    If I say this guy is an ace, you have no idea what I mean by the commonly used definitions because there is no set one.
    But the same is true of the rigid definition you're defending. There's no value in it because some teams don't have good pitchers. Simply saying "he's an ace", by your definition, doesn't tell you anything about the pitcher at all.

    I find it someone odd that you'd take such a hard line on this when it's based around the player's teammates as much as it is that players own individual skill. It seems to have a lot of similarities to the arguments against the relevance of RBI's.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    But the same is true of the rigid definition you're defending. There's no value in it because some teams don't have good pitchers. Simply saying "he's an ace", by your definition, doesn't tell you anything about the pitcher at all.
    If you are speaking in general baseball terms. But if you are talking about the team, which is the only time the word 'ace' should even be used. It's consistently misused which is sort of the entire point of this discussion. It's so misused that people have started to create their own interpretations of what the word means (or should mean).


    I find it someone odd that you'd take such a hard line on this when it's based around the player's teammates as much as it is that players own individual skill. It seems to have a lot of similarities to the arguments against the relevance of RBI's.
    The difference is that when the word is used properly you know what it means. RBI's mean nothing out of context, but when given an appropriate context of output, they have their understanding. This is no different. It's when it is used out of context and incorrectly that you have it being misused. The word 'ace' is one of the most over-used and incorrectly used words in baseball today. It simply means that guy is the best pitcher on his teams staff. That's it. But it's used so broadly and so incorrectly so consistently that people have created their own versions of what the word means or what they think it should mean.


    It all reminds me of the 'F word' episode of South Park where the boys felt a certain word's meaning was being used incorrectly and started using it another way. The evolution of the word was able to be accepted because they had a universally common and easy to define adaptation of the word that it was able to pick up support. And it's how that word is often times used today in jest. I would support a change in the word if people actually had a commonly accepted definition of the word. But you/they don't. You have different variations, enough so that it has sparked an entire thread and several discussions of the last couple of years of the definition of the word.

    So in the meantime. I will use the word as it is correctly defined until there can be a commonly accepted variation of the meaning of the word that the masses can understand. Until you have that, you just have people arguing what a word should mean to them and nobody makes any sense because everybody defines it differently.

    Just use a different word or phrase to describe a top tiered pitcher. It isn't hard, and everybody knows what you mean. It's clear, it's concise, it's simple, it's universally understood.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    So in the meantime. I will use the word as it is correctly defined until there can be a commonly accepted variation of the meaning of the word that the masses can understand. Until you have that, you just have people arguing what a word should mean to them and nobody makes any sense because everybody defines it differently.
    I'm not telling you how to use the word. I'm just contributing to the discussion of how I think it's best and most commonly used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Just use a different word or phrase to describe a top tiered pitcher. It isn't hard, and everybody knows what you mean. It's clear, it's concise, it's simple, it's universally understood.
    No. I'm open to your comments or suggestions on a variety of topics, but I'm not going to accept arrogant orders especially when you're in the minority in this case when trying to derive meaning from this word.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post


    No. I'm open to your comments or suggestions on a variety of topics, but I'm not going to accept arrogant orders especially when you're in the minority in this case when trying to derive meaning from this word.
    They are not arrogant orders, it's for the simplicity of mutual understanding.

  5. 01-03-2013, 11:13 PM
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    keep it on topic, thanks.

  6. 01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
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    keep it on topic, thanks.

  7. #80
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    Last edited by NoUseForAName; 01-04-2013 at 01:50 AM.

  8. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    If you are speaking in general baseball terms. But if you are talking about the team, which is the only time the word 'ace' should even be used. It's consistently misused which is sort of the entire point of this discussion. It's so misused that people have started to create their own interpretations of what the word means (or should mean).



    The difference is that when the word is used properly you know what it means. RBI's mean nothing out of context, but when given an appropriate context of output, they have their understanding. This is no different. It's when it is used out of context and incorrectly that you have it being misused. The word 'ace' is one of the most over-used and incorrectly used words in baseball today. It simply means that guy is the best pitcher on his teams staff. That's it. But it's used so broadly and so incorrectly so consistently that people have created their own versions of what the word means or what they think it should mean.


    It all reminds me of the 'F word' episode of South Park where the boys felt a certain word's meaning was being used incorrectly and started using it another way. The evolution of the word was able to be accepted because they had a universally common and easy to define adaptation of the word that it was able to pick up support. And it's how that word is often times used today in jest. I would support a change in the word if people actually had a commonly accepted definition of the word. But you/they don't. You have different variations, enough so that it has sparked an entire thread and several discussions of the last couple of years of the definition of the word.

    So in the meantime. I will use the word as it is correctly defined until there can be a commonly accepted variation of the meaning of the word that the masses can understand. Until you have that, you just have people arguing what a word should mean to them and nobody makes any sense because everybody defines it differently.

    Just use a different word or phrase to describe a top tiered pitcher. It isn't hard, and everybody knows what you mean. It's clear, it's concise, it's simple, it's universally understood.
    Ace used as an adjective means top-notch or first-rate.

  9. #82
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    Jeffy is right on how the word "ace" is most often used to mean the best starting pitcher on the team. Every team has an ace. Here are a few samples from fairly recent articles. From the context, you can tell that the word is being used to refer to the team's best pitcher and not as a way of distinguishing the league's best pitchers.

    Cleveland Indians Ace Justin Masterson Back to His Old Self
    Brewers ace Gallardo has been at his best
    Scott Baker turning back into Twins' ace
    If new Royals ace James Shields is going to beat the Tigers, he might have to do better against several of their hitters than he has in the past.
    AL West-leading Rangers get Cubs ace Ryan Dempster
    For a while, it looked like Ricky Romero was that starting pitcher. But lately, it's become clear that Brandon Morrow is the new ace of the Blue Jays' pitching staff.
    The term "#1 starter" can be used in the way that some of you are using the word "ace." For example:

    Rangers seeking No. 1 starter to be final piece

    To understand why the Rangers are working furiously to add a bona fide No. 1 starter,.....
    This article is not suggesting that the Rangers are working furiously to identify the best pitcher on their current staff (the "ace"). They probably already know who that is. What it's suggesting is that they want to add an elite pitcher.

    Same here:

    As Twins fans we've been clamoring for a #1 starter all year long.
    The Twins fans presumably aren't clamoring for Scott Diamond (who I suppose was their "ace") but instead are clamoring for a much better pitcher.

  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoren1 View Post
    The definition as to which is greater will always rage on. That definition from John Sickles was interesting. That being said, the term "Ace" refers to playing cards. An Ace trumps all other cards. Playing cards are older than baseball, I like their definition. You can have 5 cards in your hand, but that doesn't mean you have an Ace.
    that makes sense
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  11. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    A #1 pitcher is not the first pitcher of the pitching staff, he is among the Top 5-10 elite pitchers in the league.

    An ace is best pitcher of the pitching staff in my eyes.
    I think that many others actually think the exact opposite as you. I am one of those people (even though I know that you are correct based on the literal definition of an ace).

    My definition of an ace is a starter who dominates on a consistent basis lol...regardless of where he starts in a given rotation.

    There are probably about 10-15 starters whom I consider aces, but I'd have to do some research to be sure of the exact number.

    Thats just my definition...the one I go by.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 01-04-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  12. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Because the word already has a definition.


    Cole Hamels is still a top pitcher in all of baseball, he just isn't an ace. He isn't the ace of the Phillies staff.

    This isn't rocket science. People understand universally the definition of a word when it is used properly.


    You could say to literally anyone that didn't know a thing about baseball, that Cole Hamels isn't an ace, and that Lucas Harrell or Bud Norris is an ace and they could look up the definition and know what you mean.

    It doesn't mean Harrell or Norris is better than Hamels. It just means they are the best pitcher on their teams staff and that Hamels isn't.


    Words evolve all the time, but right now you have about 5 different variations of what people think the word should mean. So it's not like the evolution has a common meaning that is universally understood. Ace is the best pitcher on a teams staff, 'the ace of the staff'.
    Hamels is not a #1 starter though. He is a #3 starter (or #2)....Technically speaking that is.

    I have heard plenty of people refer to a staff that has 2 or 3 aces.

    Ultimately, these two phrases have been mixed together and interpreted in many ways.

    I personally view an Ace as a top, elite pitcher in the game, and a #1 starter as the #1 starter of a given staff.

    But in all honesty, it think it all has become subjective, and in reality...both terms mean the same exact thing if you want to be literal about it.

    Technically an Ace is the top pitcher in a staff (Baseball's definition of the word)...but a #1 starter also technically describes a #1 starter in a staff.

    As I said before...technically Cole Hamels is not a #1 starter...nor is he an Ace because both words really mean the same thing.

    However, Cole Hames is an Ace caliber starter and a #1 quality starter (same thing lol).

    In the end, it is my opinion that baseball's definition of the term "Ace" is very stupid....so I choose to use that word to define an "elite pitcher in the league". I'll use the term "#1 starter" to define exactly what it is...the #1 starter of a staff. It just makes more sense that way IMO.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 01-04-2013 at 04:24 PM.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  13. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Hamels is not a #1 starter though. He is a #3 starter (or #2)....Technically speaking that is.

    I have heard plenty of people refer to a staff that has 2 or 3 aces.

    Ultimately, these two phrases have been mixed together and interpreted in many ways.

    I personally view an Ace as a top, elite pitcher in the game, and a #1 starter as the #1 starter of a given staff.

    But in all honesty, it think it all has become subjective, and in reality...both terms mean the same exact thing if you want to be literal about it.

    Technically an Ace is the top pitcher in a staff (Baseball's definition of the word)...but a #1 starter also technically describes a #1 starter in a staff.

    As I said before...technically Cole Hamels is not a #1 starter...nor is he an Ace because both words really mean the same thing.

    However, Cole Hames is an Ace caliber starter and a #1 quality starter (same thing lol).

    In the end, it is my opinion that baseball's definition of the term "Ace" is very stupid....so I choose to use that word to define an "elite pitcher in the league". I'll use the term "#1 starter" to define exactly what it is...the #1 starter of a staff. It just makes more sense that way IMO.

  14. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by raidersrock99 View Post
    Some teams have won two rings in this decade some teams haven't
    Attention: I've spotted a troll. Please scroll on from it and do not feed it.

  15. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    I think that many others actually think the exact opposite as you. I am one of those people (even though I know that you are correct based on the literal definition of an ace).

    My definition of an ace is a starter who dominates on a consistent basis lol...regardless of where he starts in a given rotation.

    There are probably about 10-15 starters whom I consider aces, but I'd have to do some research to be sure of the exact number.

    Thats just my definition...the one I go by.
    Well that's the way it should be. You always hear prospects being projected to be a #1, #2, #3, etc. not an ace.

    A #1 starter is the Verlander, Price, Felix, Kershaw types. An ace is the best pitcher of the pitching staff or the pitcher that starts on opening day.

    Johan Santana is going to be the ace of the Mets staff next year, but not for his actual pitching ability.

  16. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterd View Post
    That makes no sense to me. Every team has five starters, and they are referred to by number - the #1, the #5, etc. Why would there be just 5-10 #1's, and why in the world would they be called #1's when they are very often better than the #1 pitcher on most staffs?
    Simple. Most teams don't even have a #1 starter. Many teams use their #2 or even #3 as their "ace."

  17. #90
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    But they are technically the teams #1 starter. It makes more sense to say that a teams #1 starter is their number 1 starter, rather than an ace who really isn't a #1 starter. Just makes more sense.

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