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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    I don't think he was placed as a 3rd option on offence as he's 2nd in FGA per game this season. So he was a primary option if not the first option. Unless he played like a baffoon and took more shots than he was supposed to. In any case he did not meet expectations, whether it's being 3rd option on offence(which he sucked at) or being 1st option(which he still sucked at).
    Lowry was primary option, DeRozan's usage was increased & yes Bargnani took some ill advised shots. He was not alone, DeRozan would run into tripple teams with no thought of passing & Lowry would take deep 3's early in a shot clock. Plain talk, the team was simply not moving the ball, not just Bargnani.

    IMO poor chemistry & poor movement, can't pin that on one player when there's 5 players on court.

    I would like if a statistician would post how many shots Bargnani takes late in a shot clock, apposed to early.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    His elevated play early last season partially contributed to the optimisim responsible for his expectations this season. Still, the team played "competitively" without him and competed which added to the idea that Bargnani would compliment that progress when he returned, which he didn't this season and last.
    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    He's not the sole reason, but he heavily contributed to it. Enough to the point where it appears that he is being heavily shopped despite the obvious love Jones BC shares for his number 1 pick.
    The fact he's being shopped, is BC saving his ***.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I'm wondering why there is any point. The dude is on the verge of being traded, he has played terribly this season and has been a severe disappointment for this franchise in relation to his entire career thus far. Just seems like a waste of time.
    One could argue this team/organization ruined his career.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Yorker View Post
    LOL

    vs Mavs: 25 pts, 9 reb, 45%FG

    vs Bobcats: 25 pts, 2 reb, 53% FG --Lost because of ADMITTED blown call

    vs Pistons: 35 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast, 65%FG

    vs Kings: 8 pts, 3 reb, 3 ast 21%FG

    vs Houston: 21 pts, 4 reb, 2 ast, 67%FG

    Blame him for the Sactown loss all you want, but the fact that you are insinuating that we lost to those teams because of Bargs presence on the court is laughable.

    Now you're not only hating on him when he's playing badly, but when he's playing well?
    Problem with winning/losing is, it's infectious. Cats after a solid start, have now lost 18 straight.

    What can go wrong, will go wrong.

    When it rains, it pours.

    Everyone not just Bargnani was forcing their games & the team, didn't play like a team, until Jose settled them down. To which I give him credit.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2B View Post
    Problem with winning/losing is, it's infectious. Cats after a solid start, have now lost 18 straight.

    What can go wrong, will go wrong.

    When it rains, it pours.

    Everyone not just Bargnani was forcing their games & the team, didn't play like a team, until Jose settled them down. To which I give him credit.
    to add

    you had lowry taking bad shots trying to play hero ball

    derozan letting his frustrations with the refs get the best of him

    fields and anderson getting hurt, making our wing depth weaker

    there was a train wreck of problems early this season which did not work with our tough schedule.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2B View Post
    Lowry was primary option, DeRozan's usage was increased & yes Bargnani took some ill advised shots. He was not alone, DeRozan would run into tripple teams with no thought of passing & Lowry would take deep 3's early in a shot clock. Plain talk, the team was simply not moving the ball, not just Bargnani.

    IMO poor chemistry & poor movement, can't pin that on one player when there's 5 players on court.

    I would like if a statistician would post how many shots Bargnani takes late in a shot clock, apposed to early.




    The fact he's being shopped, is BC saving his ***.



    One could argue this team/organization ruined his career.
    agreed he was not alone in the sadness that became the Raptors offensive sets. Derozan did take some ill advised shots but at least Derozan displayed an apparent improved defensive game. Not large but marginally improved timing in passing lanes and man D. As well as a solid post game.

    I'd say Bargnani was the reson that chemistry was so bad. We've got a guy being force fed minutes and shots while not earning the opportunities on offence or defence and you got a pretty pissed off team. Naturally players would look for their own in a system that has no incentive to play within the team. Including that Bargnani was a ball stopper, similar to Bosh in his late Raptor years. Derozan was a Ball stopper and same with Lowry but both of those players have loosened their grip and played within the offence as of late.

    Also it's hard for players to stand up against a player not playing well to try and remedy chemistry when the coaching staff and MGMt stand so firmly behind a player even leaving him in when he shoots 1-17 in crunchtime. Add in the mental make up of Bargs and his lackadaisical attitude and almost apathetic effort in any situation that is not a play on the ball leaves much to be desired. At the end of the day if a player is not playing well because of effort then as fans we have the right to patronize them.

    BC wouldn't have to look at saving his *** if Bargs didn't play so bad and be the worst of a bad situation. It doesn't matter at the end of the day how the franchise treated Bargs and could have stunted his growth. A 1st pick in the draft is supposed to transcend a team and his impact clearly didn't in the short run and did in the long run, but in a negative way. Hindsight is 20/20/
    Last edited by gwrighter; 12-30-2012 at 10:47 PM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    What Bargs does on offence is negated by the lack of an impact on the defensive side of the ball. This is the beaten to death "But he scores points!" argument. Doesn't hold any weight anymore as the Raps play better offensively as a team without Bargs, and defensively as well for that matter. Besides score, when he scores, what else does he do? Nothing, and even when he scores, the other team scores more!
    Bargs +/- in those games...

    vs Dallas: +7, best out of starters

    vs Charlotte: +4, 2nd best out of starters

    vs Detroit: -3, 2nd best out of starters

    vs Sac: -18, worst of starters, not surprising based on how he played

    vs Houston: -24, worst of starters, although all 5 of them got blown out of the water


    It's easy to make him the scapegoat to make your argument convenient, but it sure as hell doesnt make it right or accurate.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Yorker View Post
    Bargs +/- in those games...

    vs Dallas: +7, best out of starters

    vs Charlotte: +4, 2nd best out of starters

    vs Detroit: -3, 2nd best out of starters

    vs Sac: -18, worst of starters, not surprising based on how he played

    vs Houston: -24, worst of starters, although all 5 of them got blown out of the water


    It's easy to make him the scapegoat to make your argument convenient, but it sure as hell doesnt make it right or accurate.
    +/- is a lineup statistic but in any case, he is still at a net negative +/- for that stretch.

    Bargnani is a cancer to this team. We've witnessed addition by subtraction and are seeing first hand how important team chemistry is in relation to success and how much Bargnani took away from that category.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    +/- is a lineup statistic but in any case, he is still at a net negative +/- for that stretch.

    Bargnani is a cancer to this team. We've witnessed addition by subtraction and are seeing first hand how important team chemistry is in relation to success and how much Bargnani took away from that category.
    Can't play addition by subtraction & not factor Lowry was subtracted as well.

    In Bargnani's 7ys of inconsistency/(contending teams)/(tanking teams), how many teams with him, started the season 4-19?.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    +/- is a lineup statistic but in any case, he is still at a net negative +/- for that stretch.
    As were the majority of the players that played big minutes in those games, something you refuse to acknowledge for some reason because you have an agenda... Bargs is our best post defender according to synergy. Explain that. So we all know his help D is bad but the guy who gets beat off the perimeter is just as guilty as Bargs, is he not?

    Bargnani is a cancer to this team. We've witnessed addition by subtraction and are seeing first hand how important team chemistry is in relation to success and how much Bargnani took away from that category.
    Addition by subtraction? or have we witnessed us beating terrible teams without their best players?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    What Bargs does on offence is negated by the lack of an impact on the defensive side of the ball. This is the beaten to death "But he scores points!" argument. Doesn't hold any weight anymore as the Raps play better offensively as a team without Bargs, and defensively as well for that matter. Besides score, when he scores, what else does he do? Nothing, and even when he scores, the other team scores more!
    forget it man. 20 points is evidence of a game well played. obviously.

    i've never been able to understand why people get so hung up on scoring points. i guess it's because basketball stats still haven't found a great way to quantify defensive value.

    in baseball if a guy goes 1 for 4 with a home run but makes 3 errors in the field and runs into an out on the basepaths, nobody would say that he had a great game. yet in basketball you score 20 points on a decent percentage from the field and all else is forgiven. it doesn't matter how much you **** up. you scored 20 points!!!
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 11:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2B View Post
    Can't play addition by subtraction & not factor Lowry was subtracted as well.

    In Bargnani's 7ys of inconsistency/(contending teams)/(tanking teams), how many teams with him, started the season 4-19?.
    Lowry is back and playing well within the team.

    I dunno how many teams started 4-19 with him, but I can tell you he contributed heavily to many more losses than wins over his career with the Raps.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Yorker View Post
    As were the majority of the players that played big minutes in those games, something you refuse to acknowledge for some reason because you have an agenda... Bargs is our best post defender according to synergy. Explain that. So we all know his help D is bad but the guy who gets beat off the perimeter is just as guilty as Bargs, is he not?



    Addition by subtraction? or have we witnessed us beating terrible teams without their best players?
    Bargnani is our best post defender in 1 on 1 situtations in ISO plays only. Thats it. That Does not make him our "best post defnder" by any means. He is a terrible team defender and defensive rebounder.

    Everybody gets beat off the perimeter every now and then. But at least they put in an effort to try and help out anyway they can on defence as opposed to just standing there watching the play like Bargs.

    Injuries are a part of the game and Houston is not a terrible team, Neither is Dallas. We lost to both of those teams with Bargnani and won against them without him...
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    Lowry is back and playing well within the team.
    I will give Lowry that, since his return he's played great & well within the team.

    Tell me a 6-22 Pelican team & a Nelson, Moore, Baby less Magic team is not your proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    I dunno how many teams started 4-19 with him, but I can tell you he contributed heavily to many more losses than wins over his career with the Raps.
    If you say so,

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    forget it man. 20 points is evidence of a game well played. obviously.

    i've never been able to understand why people get so hung up on scoring points. i guess it's because basketball stats still haven't found a great way to quantify defensive value.

    in baseball if a guy goes 1 for 4 with a home run but makes 3 errors in the field and runs into an out on the basepaths, nobody would say that he had a great game. yet in basketball you score 20 points on a decent percentage from the field and all else is forgiven. it doesn't matter how much you **** up. you scored 20 points!!!
    It's the same reason why people Love Wilt and underrate Bill Russell. I can see how the casual fan can get caught up in the entertainment value of scoring pts but most people on here, especially those defending Bargnani have shown to be very competent posters, which is what is truly confusing.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2B View Post
    I will give Lowry that, since his return he's played great & well within the team.

    Tell me a 6-22 Pelican team & a Nelson, Moore, Baby less Magic team is not your proof.



    If you say so,
    It isn't my proof but from what I've seen the Raps havent skipped a beat with him back which is encouraging.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by B2B View Post
    If you say so,
    here's an interesting question. if you had a way of knowing, in advance, that Bargnani would shoot 5 for 14 in the game that night, would you still want him out there?

    the answer is astonishingly simple and that's the problem. if he's not really good at the one thing he does he's almost guaranteed to have a negative impact on the game, compared to a replacement level player.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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