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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    First you don't raise someones stock by being a 6th man, why would teams be impressed by a guy being a 6th man?? How often to you see guys trading for 6th guys and giving good value for it in season?? You build his value up by starting him not bringing him of the bench, but at this point that's not a risk I'd be willing to take.
    it's not just you but there are lots of people on this forum devaluing the 6th man role. you don't win solely on the backs of 5 guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    First you don't raise someones stock by being a 6th man, why would teams be impressed by a guy being a 6th man?? How often to you see guys trading for 6th guys and giving good value for it in season?? You build his value up by starting him not bringing him of the bench, but at this point that's not a risk I'd be willing to take.
    You put him in a position to succeed. He played well off the bench his rookie year, no reason he cant do it again. What does he do best? Score. Our arguably most talented scorer the past few years was Barbosa... who came off the bench.

    I guess Houston wasnt "impressed" by Harden enough to trade a bunch for him.. oh wait. I guess Manu's trade value is diminished because he doesnt start either, right?

    Point being, you put Bargs as the 6th man against the bench of other teams and let him go to work, leading the offense off the bench. He thrived for a stretch being the number 1 option on the team last year. He has a stretch like that again, his trade value will go up.

    Ed Davis is playing around 26 minutes because you can't just bring the guy of the bench for 3 years the suddenly expect him to play close to 40 minutes a game just like that, the guy has to build up stamina and learn how to be effective while doing so to. The next couple weeks his minutes will start to rise around the 30+ mark and stay there because that's how you develop him. The last time he played heavy minutes was a few games in college before missing the season with an injury.
    Did DC personally tell you this himself lol? Last season when they tried playing him 33+ mpg his efficiency went to the shi**er for a big man, with his FG% dropping 7%. He's shown he can be effective getting 25-30 mpg. No harm in keeping him at that rate when Bargs gets back so we can showcase him.

    Starting AA would be a horrible idea at this point, he's bringing toughness and adding some scoring punch to the second unit. We can not expect Pietrus to bring that same type of play at this point in his career of the bench which is why he's a better starter.

    We can't expect Pietrus to come off the bench at this point in his career? That's a bunch of bologna, considering Pietrus has actually played better coming off the bench the past couple of years. Starting our best 3 is a horrible idea, when it's by FAR our weakest position on the roster? AA played better as a STARTER last season, in case you care..

    Like Saddler said you don't want to twerk with something that's working so well right now and start lowering guys minutes who have actually been effective for us.
    Yes, it is working well now because we are playing shi**y teams, with half of those teams missing their best players (Dirk, Gordon, Big baby, Jameer, etc). So when we actually play good teams and start losing will it be ok then to try to raise the trade value of the guy we're looking to trade?

    You still haven't told me how he's going to take touches away from Ross offensively and possibly kill our Jose+Amir PnR that works so efficiently.
    Considering Ross is a little too trigger happy it wouldnt hurt him to get better at his shot selection. He isnt the most efficient guy on the court. When Bargs gets traded he can go back to heaving it up.

    And yes, Jose will probably get traded, which would kill that dang efficient Jose+Amir PnR.

    You also haven't explained how a Bargs+Amir front court has been awful defensively suddenly is going to improve?? Our bench has brought great defensive intensity and has kept opponents to good percentages and building leads, so your solution is to suddenly ruin that and start killing leads???
    I think a wing combo of Pietrus/Ross is the best perimeter defence we can put out there, thus helping compensate for Bargs brutal help D, and Bargs man D is pretty decent. Not saying it will be perfect, but it shouldnt be terrible like it was when Bargs was paired with JVal and had poor defenders in Jose and DDR on he perimeter.

    Facepalm all you want, it makes no damn sense
    What part doesnt make sense? The part where we move AA into the starting lineup where he has shown he has played better as a starter? Or is it the part where we move Pietrus to the bench where he has been more effective the past couple of years?

    OR

    is it that it makes no sense to raise the trade value of the guy we're "locked" to trade??
    Last edited by North Yorker; 12-29-2012 at 11:05 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    I think this off season is the last or something like that IIRC. Not sure but I remember reading on this forum something like that.
    if this is the last season to use the amnesty than it doesn't seem like such a bad idea. at least we won't have to take a bad contract back, a very real possibility in a trade.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  4. #49
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    Eric Gordon? set your sights a little lower people.. more like Ben Gordon.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #50
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    all this talk over anderson and bargnani comparisons, I would take anderson over him any day of the week.

  6. #51
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    Raps need another big man, hopefully they can try and getting one for Bargs.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by North Yorker View Post
    You put him in a position to succeed. He played well off the bench his rookie year, no reason he cant do it again. What does he do best? Score. Our arguably most talented scorer the past few years was Barbosa... who came off the bench.
    That's the problem your worrying more about raising his stock and trying to place him a place for him to personally succeed knowing full well the team is better of without him in it.

    What a horrible example, Barbosa was our best 6th man and how much money did he get this off season?? He was a ball hogue, who rarely passed, killed any offensive momentum and rarely set other guys up. He killed his stock if anything because teams weren't lining up for his services in the off season.

    Not to mention where did our bench rank last year with that same Barbosa killing ball movement??



    I guess Houston wasnt "impressed" by Harden enough to trade a bunch for him.. oh wait. I guess Manu's trade value is diminished because he doesnt start either, right?
    Ya comparing Harden another top pick that actually has been more consistant than Bargs has ever been and proved he can play heavy minutes in big games and actually play a good sound defensive game is really the same to Bargs right?? Your acting like all Manu and Harden do are score and score. These guys get team mates involved, don't chuck and are actually solid defenders.

    They are nowhere near the same value. Think of a guy like Al Harrington or a Beasley and how much value do those guys have?? They are heavy scoring big men of the bench, that are a cancer to a team because they lack defense.

    In fact the T-Wolves let Beasley do what your suggesting Bargs to of the bench and how much value did he bring them back, when they tried trading him? Nothing so he became a FA and didn't get a great big deal.


    Point being, you put Bargs as the 6th man against the bench of other teams and let him go to work, leading the offense off the bench. He thrived for a stretch being the number 1 option on the team last year. He has a stretch like that again, his trade value will go up.
    He thrived for a bit in a small sample size then when we gave him the same opportunity with practically a bit of improvements to the roster, he failed again and took a step back.

    His value at this point is what it is




    Did DC personally tell you this himself lol? Last season when they tried playing him 33+ mpg his efficiency went to the shi**er for a big man, with his FG% dropping 7%. He's shown he can be effective getting 25-30 mpg. No harm in keeping him at that rate when Bargs gets back so we can showcase him.
    Your acting like they consistantly played him 33+ minutes go take a look at his game logs and look at how his minutes fluctuated. This isn't like he got 33+ minutes like 10 games in a row and he was crap.

    Also his FG% dropped a bit last year because he started working on a jumper and using it more often, now this off season he worked on his shooting technique and he's gotten slightly better. You took that one stat where he was averaging like 5-6 FGA when he played heavy minutes as a big sample size. It's not like he took 10+ shots a game and his FG% dropped 7%.

    Again your just nitpicking things trying to redeem your argument but its not working.

    There is harm at keeping him at this level and not building his stamina up because if Bargs does get traded then suddenly we increase his minutes and expect him to play highly??





    We can't expect Pietrus to come off the bench at this point in his career? That's a bunch of bologna, considering Pietrus has actually played better coming off the bench the past couple of years. Starting our best 3 is a horrible idea, when it's by FAR our weakest position on the roster? AA played better as a STARTER last season, in case you care..
    What are you talking about, Pietrus can't come of the bench and have the same impact that AA is having right now, what's so funny about that?? So what if he came of the bench the last 2 years, did he make plays and set team mates of the bench like AA can?? Pietrus also can't bring the same level of effort and blue collared work that AA is bringing to our team right now, with the hustling and strong defense.

    He is our best 3 but then your basically going all out with your team on the starting unit and don't have a glue guy with the second unit.
    Also take last year, scrunch it up and throw it out the window, it was a tank year, whatever happened last year you take with a grain of salt. With AA on the second unit you also add another shot creator and a better shooter out there.

    Pietrus fits better on the starting unit because he's more of a spot up shooter that needs someone to create and dish to him. AA doesn't really need that which is why he's coming of the bench and assisting us there.

    Also where did you get Pietrus has been better coming of the bench the last 2 years?? His shooting %'s have gone down and his other numbers have been the same if not dropped a bit..

    Yes, it is working well now because we are playing shi**y teams, with half of those teams missing their best players (Dirk, Gordon, Big baby, Jameer, etc). So when we actually play good teams and start losing will it be ok then to try to raise the trade value of the guy we're looking to trade?
    Were we not in the Spurs game into the 4th Q??? Then the Spurs started pulling away because our depth down low started killing us because Jose was getting beat by the PG with no one to protect the rim??

    We can go up against good teams with the current unit, just wait until we face a good opponent again then we'll see.


    Considering Ross is a little too trigger happy it wouldnt hurt him to get better at his shot selection. He isnt the most efficient guy on the court. When Bargs gets traded he can go back to heaving it up.
    Playing alongside isn't going to help him be more efficient if anything it'll make him more antsy and want to shoot more from the lack of touches he'd be getting. At this point I rather give him the touches, learn and develop him because he's actually more vital to our future then building whatever value you think we can build with a guy who already has negative value to teams.



    And yes, Jose will probably get traded, which would kill that dang efficient Jose+Amir PnR.
    Ya and lets replace that with an inefficient Bargnani taking shots trying to higher his value


    What part doesnt make sense? The part where we move AA into the starting lineup where he has shown he has played better as a starter? Or is it the part where we move Pietrus to the bench where he has been more effective the past couple of years?

    OR

    is it that it makes no sense to raise the trade value of the guy we're "locked" to trade?
    The part where you go away from whats working for you and your team and playing someone just to try raising their value when it probably won't even raise their value much if anything.

    Were locked to trading him, and I still don't get how you think letting a guy be a volume scorer of the bench is going to raise his value. You keep dodging the question, is his rebounding or defense going to improve because teams already know how he is offensively, its his defense that every team out there knows is garbage.

    Is coming of the bench going to hide that deficiency or what???


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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    it's not just you but there are lots of people on this forum devaluing the 6th man role. you don't win solely on the backs of 5 guys.
    Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry say hi.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    it's not just you but there are lots of people on this forum devaluing the 6th man role. you don't win solely on the backs of 5 guys.
    Where am I devaluing the 6th man role? I said AA is a better suited 6th man than Bargs, you don't have to be a pure scorer to be a 6th man.

    AA of the bench is giving us everything we need to raise leads or bring us back in games. That to me is a true 6th man.


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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry say hi.
    seemingly random responses that make no sense say "what up"?

    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 12:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    That's the problem your worrying more about raising his stock and trying to place him a place for him to personally succeed knowing full well the team is better of without him in it.
    didn't you just chastise him for wanting Bargnani to be the 6th man, using the argument that you don't boost his trade value by doing so?
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    didn't you just chastise him for wanting Bargnani to be the 6th man, using the argument that you don't boost his trade value by doing so?
    Oh, well ya like I said to him, how exactly is he going to build up value by showing he can score effectively?? So teams are going to trade for a 20M dollar 6th man when there are Beasley's and AL Harringtons out in the world who you can get for cheaper.

    Not to mention the same guys who Ink named are guys that not only were vital scorers but also played clutch defense for their teams which is why they have high value. Comparing Bargs 6th man abilities to theirs is a joke


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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    Oh, well ya like I said to him, how exactly is he going to build up value by showing he can score effectively?? So teams are going to trade for a 20M dollar 6th man when there are Beasley's and AL Harringtons out in the world who you can get for cheaper.

    Not to mention the same guys who Ink named are guys that not only were vital scorers but also played clutch defense for their teams which is why they have high value. Comparing Bargs 6th man abilities to theirs is a joke
    frankly it's hard to have discussions with you because you are all over the place.

    he suggested that Bargnani be 6th man. so you said "that ain't no way to build his trade value" or something to that extent. so that's YOU being more concerned with compiling counting stats than what's best for his overall performance.

    what i don't understand is why you think it makes a difference what role he is playing for us. whoever acquires him can use him in whatever way they see fit. just because he is coming off the bench here doesn't mean that team can't use him to start, so his salary is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-30-2012 at 12:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles4Lyfe View Post
    That's the problem your worrying more about raising his stock and trying to place him a place for him to personally succeed knowing full well the team is better of without him in it.

    What a horrible example, Barbosa was our best 6th man and how much money did he get this off season?? He was a ball hogue, who rarely passed, killed any offensive momentum and rarely set other guys up. He killed his stock if anything because teams weren't lining up for his services in the off season.

    Not to mention where did our bench rank last year with that same Barbosa killing ball movement??




    Ya comparing Harden another top pick that actually has been more consistant than Bargs has ever been and proved he can play heavy minutes in big games and actually play a good sound defensive game is really the same to Bargs right?? Your acting like all Manu and Harden do are score and score. These guys get team mates involved, don't chuck and are actually solid defenders.

    They are nowhere near the same value. Think of a guy like Al Harrington or a Beasley and how much value do those guys have?? They are heavy scoring big men of the bench, that are a cancer to a team because they lack defense.

    In fact the T-Wolves let Beasley do what your suggesting Bargs to of the bench and how much value did he bring them back, when they tried trading him? Nothing so he became a FA and didn't get a great big deal.



    He thrived for a bit in a small sample size then when we gave him the same opportunity with practically a bit of improvements to the roster, he failed again and took a step back.

    His value at this point is what it is





    Your acting like they consistantly played him 33+ minutes go take a look at his game logs and look at how his minutes fluctuated. This isn't like he got 33+ minutes like 10 games in a row and he was crap.

    Also his FG% dropped a bit last year because he started working on a jumper and using it more often, now this off season he worked on his shooting technique and he's gotten slightly better. You took that one stat where he was averaging like 5-6 FGA when he played heavy minutes as a big sample size. It's not like he took 10+ shots a game and his FG% dropped 7%.

    Again your just nitpicking things trying to redeem your argument but its not working.

    There is harm at keeping him at this level and not building his stamina up because if Bargs does get traded then suddenly we increase his minutes and expect him to play highly??






    What are you talking about, Pietrus can't come of the bench and have the same impact that AA is having right now, what's so funny about that?? So what if he came of the bench the last 2 years, did he make plays and set team mates of the bench like AA can?? Pietrus also can't bring the same level of effort and blue collared work that AA is bringing to our team right now, with the hustling and strong defense.

    He is our best 3 but then your basically going all out with your team on the starting unit and don't have a glue guy with the second unit.
    Also take last year, scrunch it up and throw it out the window, it was a tank year, whatever happened last year you take with a grain of salt. With AA on the second unit you also add another shot creator and a better shooter out there.

    Pietrus fits better on the starting unit because he's more of a spot up shooter that needs someone to create and dish to him. AA doesn't really need that which is why he's coming of the bench and assisting us there.

    Also where did you get Pietrus has been better coming of the bench the last 2 years?? His shooting %'s have gone down and his other numbers have been the same if not dropped a bit..



    Were we not in the Spurs game into the 4th Q??? Then the Spurs started pulling away because our depth down low started killing us because Jose was getting beat by the PG with no one to protect the rim??

    We can go up against good teams with the current unit, just wait until we face a good opponent again then we'll see.



    Playing alongside isn't going to help him be more efficient if anything it'll make him more antsy and want to shoot more from the lack of touches he'd be getting. At this point I rather give him the touches, learn and develop him because he's actually more vital to our future then building whatever value you think we can build with a guy who already has negative value to teams.




    Ya and lets replace that with an inefficient Bargnani taking shots trying to higher his value




    The part where you go away from whats working for you and your team and playing someone just to try raising their value when it probably won't even raise their value much if anything.

    Were locked to trading him, and I still don't get how you think letting a guy be a volume scorer of the bench is going to raise his value. You keep dodging the question, is his rebounding or defense going to improve because teams already know how he is offensively, its his defense that every team out there knows is garbage.

    Is coming of the bench going to hide that deficiency or what???
    You are clearly de-valuing the 6th man role, as other posters have pointed out. Not sure why you continue to deny it. You said the only way to raise Bargs trade value is to start him. I disagree. Congrats on completely missing the point about Manu and Harden too. I wasnt comparing Bargs to them, I was saying that their value isnt diminished by coming off the bench. Do you think Pietrus is better than AA because AA comes off the bench? Of course not, and Pietrus's value isnt increased because he's starting either. That's the part of your post that didnt make any sense to me.

    And what question did I dodge? You're the one acting as your opinion is fact and rationalizing everything. Like there is "no way" that we can win by giving Bargs ~20mpg. You know how ridiculous that sounds. We arent going anywhere this year anyways, with no draft pick and no cap space this summer. The package we get back for Bargs IS IMPORTANT for the future of this franchise, whether you'd like to believe it or not.

    Every team knows what he's capable and incapable of. The problem is that his so called "strengths" arent as impressive as they used to be (3P% regressing,etc). You put him in the right compliment of players and the proper role and he can be a fantastic player to have on the team. THAT is what we should be trying to showcase, because the better package we get for him, the better the team will be long term. It's not a hard concept to understand.

    This is a "what have you done for me lately" type of business. Hell Jeremy Lin had what, 10-15 great games last season?? He gets handed $25M. If Bargs can put together a stretch of games where he plays to his abilities, teams WILL be more interested. The guy was probably our best player last year, you should be more concerned on getting a semi-decent return for him rather than him sabotaging our quest to win 35 games.
    Last edited by North Yorker; 12-30-2012 at 12:35 AM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB29 View Post
    If he doesn't wanna play in NOH and perhaps sat out a whole season to get traded, you think he's gonna wanna play in Toronto?
    I thought HOU and TOR were possible suitors for him in the offseason.

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