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  1. #1
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    On paper better team, 92/2013

    On paper which team you think is better? I vote 2013

  2. #2
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    On paper 1992.

    For me:

    Olerud = Edwin (tie)
    Alomar > Izturis/Emilio
    Reyes > Lee
    Lawrie > Gruber
    JPA > Borders
    Jose = Joe
    Devon > Rasmus
    Dave Winfield > Adam Lind

    92 - 3 players. 2012 - 3 players tie for two.

    Rotation:
    Both are pretty good. But Romero was so bad, I cant say its overall better (2012 over 1992) on paper. Plus the Jays got Cone in August, so I would say with Morris, Cone, Key and that ridiculous season by Juan Guzman the 1992 Jays get the edge.


    Bullpen:
    1992 only cause I think Henke and Ward is a better one, two punch than Santos and Janssen.


    So for me the final decision is 1992 by a nose...

    But I have high hopes for 2012!!
    Last edited by Sanyo; 12-29-2012 at 01:09 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanyo View Post
    On paper 1992.

    For me:

    Olerud = Edwin (tie)
    Alomar > Izturis/Emilio
    Reyes > Lee
    Lawrie > Gruber
    JPA > Borders
    Jose = Joe
    Devon > Rasmus
    Dave Winfield > Adam Lind

    92 - 3 players. 2012 - 3 players tie for two.

    Rotation:
    Both are pretty good. But Romero was so bad, I cant say its overall better (2012 over 1992) on paper. Plus the Jays got Cone in August, so I would say with Morris, Cone, Key and that ridiculous season by Juan Guzman the 1992 Jays get the edge.


    Bullpen:
    1992 only cause I think Henke and Ward is a better one, two punch than Santos and Janssen.


    So for me the final decision is 1992 by a nose...

    But I have high hopes for 2012!!
    Carter wasnt even in the top 3 of his team. No where near the level of production Bautista gives you. Not to mention you forgot Maldonado who was one of teh better hitters on the team in 92.


    Also Winfield was>>>>>>>>>>> Lind

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanyo View Post
    On paper 1992.

    For me:

    Olerud = Edwin (tie)
    Alomar > Izturis/Emilio
    Reyes > Lee
    Lawrie > Gruber
    JPA > Borders
    Jose = Joe
    Devon > Rasmus
    Dave Winfield > Adam Lind

    92 - 3 players. 2012 - 3 players tie for two.

    Rotation:
    Both are pretty good. But Romero was so bad, I cant say its overall better (2012 over 1992) on paper. Plus the Jays got Cone in August, so I would say with Morris, Cone, Key and that ridiculous season by Juan Guzman the 1992 Jays get the edge.


    Bullpen:
    1992 only cause I think Henke and Ward is a better one, two punch than Santos and Janssen.


    So for me the final decision is 1992 by a nose...

    But I have high hopes for 2012!!
    As much as i love Joe Carter, he is no where close to the player Bautista is. Carter is one of the most over rated players from the 1980/90's

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
    As much as i love Joe Carter, he is no where close to the player Bautista is. Carter is one of the most over rated players from the 1980/90's
    Very true 303 obp in 92 isn't great for ur 3rd hitter.
    Last edited by rapsjaysfan88; 12-29-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapsjaysfan88 View Post
    Very true 303 obp in 92 isn't great for ur 3rd hitter.
    That was a time when baseball fans weren't so obsessed with how a player got results, as long as he got them. The guy drove in runs. He drove in 100+ every year but one of his 8 years with the Jays. That's why they traded for him. That's what you do in the clean-up spot.

  7. #7
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    I like 2013's team.

  8. #8
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    Don't want to count your money before you make it. This '13 has a lot to prove yet...I have them as playoff team but World Series team is very debatable. They got holes. Lind will be either dh or 1b, catcher is weak, 3b needs bounce back year, Bautista needs to be healthy, cf is a head case. The '92 team was quite the lineup. Jimmy Key was our 4th starter, shows how deep rotation was. Look at that pen? Henke- Ward- Wells - Leiter - Hentgen in the pen. Wamco at top of order...they could put up some numbers.

  9. #9
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    Tough to say. Just trying to line it up position wise (taking a few liberties with guys that are easier to compare to each other):

    C- Arencibia and Borders are both fairly poor catchers overall. Borders has the defensive edge, while Arencibia probably adds a bit over Borders offensively.

    1B- Olerud and Edwin are different types of first basemen. If Edwin can repeat what he did in 2012, than he is certainly better than 1992 Olerud; but it is probably a bit foolish to count on more out of Edwin than enough to call this a wash.

    2B/SS- Reyes and Alomar are similar type-players, and while I am excited about the type of production that Reyes will bring to the top of this order in 2013, I think it's safe to assume that a 24-year-old Alomar has the edge all around.

    2B/SS- Manuel Lee vs. Maicer Izturis- Pretty much as close as you can get to a wash.

    3B- We don't really know what we're going to get out of Lawrie this year, but I think it is safe to say it will bet better than what Gruber and Kent gave in '92, with the potential to exceed their production significantly.

    LF- Melky vs. Maldonado; see the 1B discussion. If Melky can repeat 2012, he looks pretty good stacked up against Maldonado, but Candy had a good year in '92. I don't think anyone can guarantee that Melky will outperform .272/.357/.462 with 20 dingers, and would in fact be quite pleased with that production.

    CF- The bats of White and Rasmus are quite similar, with the two guys being roughly equal at the plate. White, however, has the edge on the basepaths and in the field, although Colby is no slouch in CF.

    RF- Carter vs. Jose- not to slag one of the all-time Jays heros, but Jose Bautista at the top of his game wipes the floor with Carter. Hell, even 2/3 of a season of Jose in 2012 has the edge over 1992 Carter.

    DH- Winfield vs. Lind/???- Lind would have to repeat his 2009 to even sniff Winfield's jockstrap. Enough said here.



    So, looks like the two offenses are broadly similar. Hard to say which is better. If Lawrie and Rasmus explore a portion of their upside in 2013 and Edwin/Melky/Jose play to their abilities, and the Jays work out some passable DH arrangement, I think the 2013 offense has a decent advantage over the 1992 squad. If some or all of those caveats fail to pan out, then we are looking at roughly equivalent offenses or potentially a slightly worse 2013 offense than the squad that Cito trotted out there in 1992.

    Now the rotation:

    Morris vs. Dickey
    Key vs. Johnson
    Guzman vs. Buehrle
    Stottlemeyer vs. Morrow
    Wells/Stieb/Cone vs. Romero

    While there are some names enshrined in Jays lore on the left column there, I think all would agree (after looking at the 1992 rotation's stats) that this 2013 rotation can exceed the 1992 one fairly handily.

    And lastly the bullpen:

    The back end of the 1992 bullpen was anchored by Henke and Ward. Those are monstrous shoes for Janssen and Santos to fill. There are some question marks about both guys, but if all goes well they have a chance to come pretty close. As for the rest of the pen- it's hard to say. The rest of the 1992 pen was certainly solid, but not particularly legendary. There are so many question marks with middle/long relief portion of the 2013 Jays' pen that it is hard to say what they will do. Retaining Oliver would go a long way to stabilizing the pen. Suffice it to say the 2013 Jays relievers certainly have a chance to do what the 1992 Jays did.


    Long story short- there are lots of variables. But I think even a conservative reading of the comparisons shows the 2013 Jays being at least on the same level as the 1992 Jays, with a reasonable chance to outperform that level.

  10. #10
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    13 in my opinion is better then 92 at 3rd, ss, 1st, catcher production, rf, juicy melky in lf, cf Rasmus less obp more production. Dh and 2nd is an easy win for 92. 13 bp has potential to be very good but I'll go with 92. A good year/ typical season and the 13 is a better rotation and all around defensively I think 13 may have an edge but I'm not quite sure. Overall team speed is a win for 13.
    Last edited by rapsjaysfan88; 12-29-2012 at 04:04 AM.

  11. #11
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    Joe Carter is absolutely the most over-rated Jays player we've ever had. The 92 team was better as well, not sure how many around here are even old enough to remember but those teams back then were stacked. Think of the Yankees teams from years past, the Jays were an all-star team throughout the lineup and rotation. This current team has great potential but there are far too many question marks right now to make a fair comparison.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay View Post
    Joe Carter is absolutely the most over-rated Jays player we've ever had. The 92 team was better as well, not sure how many around here are even old enough to remember but those teams back then were stacked. Think of the Yankees teams from years past, the Jays were an all-star team throughout the lineup and rotation. This current team has great potential but there are far too many question marks right now to make a fair comparison.
    Different era i guess. But that team in 92 was 5 guys who were above to very good players in Winfield, Alomar, Maldanado, Olerud, Carter.And then also had 4 regulars who were poor hitters White, Lee, Borders, and Gruber.

    This years team has Bautista, EE, Reyes, Cabrera, Lawrie who you could argue collectively are better than those 5 guys (Winfield, Alomar, Maldanado, Olerud, Carter). It would be close but i think that the slight edge goes to these 5. As for the rest, Borders in 92 is pretty much JPA now w/ **** defence (comparatively). Which leaves Lee, Gruber, White compared to Izturis, Lind, Rasmus/Gose, trictly looking at 92 to this group I think they are similar but again i think i might give the edge to this group.

    Regardless this year should be fun.


    PS. If gose can have turn into the same player as White on the field (defense) and continue his patience (10% BB%) at the plate along with moderate power (10-15 HR) then he will be a star here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaysFan87 View Post
    Different era i guess. But that team in 92 was 5 guys who were above to very good players in Winfield, Alomar, Maldanado, Olerud, Carter.And then also had 4 regulars who were poor hitters White, Lee, Borders, and Gruber.
    Just for fun:

    Alomar: 6.6 WAR
    White: 6.4 WAR (crazy, somewhat unrealistic D numbers)
    Winfield: 4.3 WAR
    Olerud: 3.5 WAR
    Carter: 3.4 WAR
    Lee: 3.2 WAR
    Maldonado: 2.7 WAR

    Those would be the top 7 hitters on the 92 squad. You might be able to argue that this squad has better elite players (Bautista, Reyes, Encarnacion vs Alomar/White/Winfield). But I think the 92 position players would have been much better overall. But I guess it depends on your preference of depth in the lineup or higher end talent but several below average guys.

    Keep in mind that only 2 Jays last year > 3 WAR, and Lawrie probably would have if he was healthy @ 2.9.

    It would be close but i think that the slight edge goes to these 5. As for the rest, Borders in 92 is pretty much JPA now w/ **** defence (comparatively). Which leaves Lee, Gruber, White compared to Izturis, Lind, Rasmus/Gose, trictly looking at 92 to this group I think they are similar but again i think i might give the edge to this group.
    You're selling Lee/White/Gruber short. They're a lot better than Izturis/Lind/Rasmus. Borders I agree, but the others, I think it's no contest as White/Lee/Gruber are better than Lind/Rasmus/Izturis.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Just for fun:

    Alomar: 6.6 WAR
    White: 6.4 WAR (crazy, somewhat unrealistic D numbers)
    Winfield: 4.3 WAR
    Olerud: 3.5 WAR
    Carter: 3.4 WAR
    Lee: 3.2 WAR
    Maldonado: 2.7 WAR

    Those would be the top 7 hitters on the 92 squad. You might be able to argue that this squad has better elite players (Bautista, Reyes, Encarnacion vs Alomar/White/Winfield). But I think the 92 position players would have been much better overall. But I guess it depends on your preference of depth in the lineup or higher end talent but several below average guys.

    Keep in mind that only 2 Jays last year > 3 WAR, and Lawrie probably would have if he was healthy @ 2.9.
    I agree that Alomar was outstanding. White was great on the D but his bat was below average. The best positional players (in terms of their stick) were Winfield, Alomar, Olerud, Maldonado. Then carter, then way down there White. What doesnt come close to that WAR without that 33 FLD. Nonetheless I think in the overall Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Reyes, Cabrera are as a whole better than Alomar, Winfield, Maldonado, Olerud and Carter. Close but the edge to the current group.



    You're selling Lee/White/Gruber short. They're a lot better than Izturis/Lind/Rasmus. Borders I agree, but the others, I think it's no contest as White/Lee/Gruber are better than Lind/Rasmus/Izturis.
    .255/.314/.414 (LIND)

    .229/.275/.352 (Gruber)

    .263/.343/.316 Lee

    .248/.303/.390 (White)

    .248/.303/.390 Rasmus

    .256/.320/.315 Izturis

    The players are in the white beside there stat lines in 92 and 13. I think you can see by just quickly going through the numbers how similar they were. ANd its curious to see just how riduclous White was in the field to get his war that high.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaysFan87 View Post
    I agree that Alomar was outstanding. White was great on the D but his bat was below average.
    Context is a beautiful thing. White had a wRC+ of 92, and while that's below average it's not exactly awful either.

    The best positional players (in terms of their stick) were Winfield, Alomar, Olerud, Maldonado. Then carter, then way down there White.[/quote]

    Actually, it's Winfield (140 wRC+), Alomar (135 wRC+), Maldonado (128 wRC+), Olerud (127 wRC+), Carter (119 wRC+) and then White. Kent was pretty damn good too, but he wasn't in the playoffs for obvious reasons.

    What doesnt come close to that WAR without that 33 FLD. Nonetheless I think in the overall Bautista, EE, Lawrie, Reyes, Cabrera are as a whole better than Alomar, Winfield, Maldonado, Olerud and Carter.
    Are you talking strictly with the bat, or as overall players? Strictly with the bat, yeah, EE/Bautista > Alomar/Winfield. But that's about it. Reyes/Melky wouldn't be as good as Maldonado/Olerud, and after that it's Lawrie who wouldn't be as good as Carter. And so on, with the 92 squad being better the rest of the way except for Gruber.

    The Jays have a better 3/4 combo with Bautista/EE, but that's about it. 92 team has the advantage for having a deeper lineup.

    Close but the edge to the current group.
    I'd prefer the 92 lineup, both focusing only on hitting and as overall players (ie defence included).

    .255/.314/.414 (LIND) 98 wRC+

    .229/.275/.352 (Gruber) 71 wRC+

    .263/.343/.316 Lee 89 wRC+

    .248/.303/.390 (White) 92 wRC+

    .248/.303/.390 Rasmus 85 wRC+

    .256/.320/.315 Izturis 82 wRC+

    The players are in the white beside there stat lines in 92 and 13. I think you can see by just quickly going through the numbers how similar they were. ANd its curious to see just how riduclous White was in the field to get his war that high.
    I added in the wRC+ to your quote. Changes things a bit when we put it in perspective relative to the league. Again, after the top 2 hitters the 92 team has a lot more depth in the lineup, and unless the Jays get a breakout from someone unexpected (Lawrie, Rasmus, Arencibia) then the 92 team will be, at least on paper, the stronger lineup.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

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