Who loses/gains the most if advanced stats come 20 years earlier?

[bagwell368]

why Nolan Ryan? his whip looks like it's always pretty solid. i would have thought because of the records (W-L) that he actually would be looked upon even more favorably now?

Because of all the people that say he's the best SP of all time, most of them hypnotized by his K's.

OTOH, he leads MLB in BB's by a greater % then he does in K's. 2nd all time in wild pitches too.

His ERA+ marks (112) are career wise at the level of a #2-3 SP.

His winning % above his teams (a valid way to view a long lived pitcher) is not at all impressive.

The W-L record was always explained away by him being on poor teams, which is a complete myth, in fact his teams as a whole represent a very normal grouping of teams for a guy with his career length.

He's someplace around 23-26th best all time based on longevity, very impressive, but he's closer to Ben Sheets in rWAR then he is to the #3 SP - Clemens. So, it's a myth he's the best of all time, one that seems to be fading these past 10 years or so.

Koufax is the other common wrong answer, but at least Koufax had an amazing peak, something Ryan never had.

[Jeffy25]

My cousin named his son after Nolan Ryan. I told him he'd learn to walk quickly.

you don't think that would be neutralized somewhat by the de-emphasis on pitcher wins?

I'm confused, are you saying Ryan had a high or a low wins total?


Ryan is over-rated for two reasons.

1. His 7 no-hitters. While that is an awesome, just awesome achievement. It isn't the sign of a top 5 pitcher of all time, which is how Ryan is often treated
2. His high BB rate kept his ability to produce Cy Young caliber seasons, and overall dominance to controlled level. He allowed a good number of runs because of his walks and he lost a lot of games because of them.

While Ryan has clear longevity, and many seasons of clear dominance, he is often times treated as a top 5, or even the best, pitcher to ever play the game. And he simply isn't. Top 20 or so is his rightful rank. It's easy to see his awesome K total for his career, but you can't help but notice that he also, is easily number one in career walks as well, hell he walked over 200 guys twice in his career, literally 2 of the only 3 times it's ever been done are by him.

Clearly a dominant pitcher, just often times treated like one of the best ever, and in reality, he probably isn't better than Bert Blyeleven, who took 15 years to get in off the ballot, while Ryan made it in with almost unanimous consent on his first ballot.

[Jamiecballer]

^ alright guys thanks for explaining. i'm 33 and i must admit i never really heard any chatter about Ryan being the best of all time as i was growing up, not that i can recall.

top 20 or so was right about how i valued him growing up and that was without advanced stats so that's why i wasn't sure what you guys meant.

[jej]

I am young, but even I have heard people act as tho he is one of, if not the best. People might not have straight out said "best", but people certainly think he is up there.

Again, I never saw him pitch or anything, but I've heard his name so much that I always assumed he was, or at least people thought he was one of the best.

[Jeffy25]

I am young, but even I have heard people act as tho he is one of, if not the best. People might not have straight out said "best", but people certainly think he is up there.

Again, I never saw him pitch or anything, but I've heard his name so much that I always assumed he was, or at least people thought he was one of the best.

I'm 29, so I only watched him toward the end (I remember him as an aging 40 year old personally) but I always knew of his dominance. People would talk about his 100 MPH and great bending curveball all the time, the 7 no-hitters, and the strike outs.

He had the stuff, obviously. But he walked soo many guys that it really limited what he could have been with that stuff. Still, an all time great, fantastic longevity. Not much of an 'peak' though, and too many walks.

2 seasons over 7 rWAR
6 seasons over 5 rWAR (in 3 different decades too lol)


Just to put his best individual rWAR season performance into perspective, his 1977 7.5 rWAR is 147th best for a single season, and has been done by 126 individual pitchers.

Walter Johnson did it 9 times
Rogers Clemens did it 8 times
Randy Johnson did it 7 times
Lefty Grove and Pete Alexander each did it 6 times
Christy Mathewson 5 times
and 7 guys including Pedro and Maddux each did it 4 times.

Just sort of comparing how he looks compared to the all time greats. He just walked too many batters and surrendered too many runs to be even a top 5 pitcher of all time. Even with the great importance of strike outs.

[abe_froman]

^ alright guys thanks for explaining. i'm 33 and i must admit i never really heard any chatter about Ryan being the best of all time as i was growing up, not that i can recall.

top 20 or so was right about how i valued him growing up and that was without advanced stats so that's why i wasn't sure what you guys meant.

i'm younger than you, but even i have heard alot of ryan is the best pitcher of all time ...i still do every so often

[DodgerBlue8188]

Classic choice. "Joe Carter is a great RBI man."

Jim Rice, Nolan Ryan, Andre Dawson and a host of others would look worse.

Joe Morgan, Ricky H., Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Larry Walker, Alan Trammell, Sweet Lou, Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds, Jim Wynn, and a pile more would look better.

the thing about Nolan Ryan is that you can't ignore the 7 no hitters and massive K's.

[Jamiecballer]

i'm younger than you, but even i have heard alot of ryan is the best pitcher of all time ...i still do every so often

that's weird. i NEVER have, honest to god.

[Guppyfighter]

I heard it all the time and I used to think that as well.

[Jeffy25]

that's weird. i NEVER have, honest to god.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...ght=nolan+ryan

[thomass]

nolan gets more press just because he's always been around the game... he spent 30 years putting up good numbers and now he owns a part of the rangers... he's just always been around.

[thomass]

well i dont think any true baseball fan thinks joe carter was "great." He never won an MVP (closest he came was 3rd place one year), and he wont get into the hall of fame. He is what he is... a good player that happen to have one of the biggest hits of all time

[Jamiecballer]

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...ght=nolan+ryan

well **** i was talking about when we were growing up. i don't care about some PSD poll

he was always held up as a standard in physically overpowering people but i always considered him to be somewhat of a novelty as well.

[Zmaster52]

Randy Johnson will go down as the greatest pitcher of all time in my book. (Not accused of PEDs)

WAR may look at Maddux in favor but it's still really close. Johnson will go down as the greatest in my book.

[bagwell368]

the thing about Nolan Ryan is that you can't ignore the 7 no hitters and massive K's.

The thing is that he appeared in 800 other games, and produced a very UN-elite ERA+ of 112 in his career. That's less than:

Bob Veale
Eric Plunk
Juan Guzman
Erik Bedard

Massive K's?

Ryan 5714 at #1, Randy at 4875

Massive BB's:

Ryan 2795 at #1, Calrton at 1833 at #2

Ryan is 14.7% above 2nd place in K's
Ryan is 34.4% above 2nd place in BB's

Sorry, but no matter how you slice it or dice it, Ryan isn't in the top 20, and might not even be in the top 25 all time.