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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by infernoscurse View Post
    I disagree with your posts mainly cause you think I am a cashman supporter in the way that I defend every move he makes and he makes no wrong when I am critical when I need to be, I just dont accuse all of the failures to him. And yes again , we won with players that stick michael put together as GM, but a lot of things justhappened to go right, he wanted jeffrey hammonds, wasn t going to take jeter if hammonds fell to him, if george would of had his way our core wouldnt even be with us and the story would have been different and we couldnt make Gene michael as highly touted as you make him to be. If Stick was so great why isnt he a GM somewhere building championships? after not being a GM he was head of scouting for us, what great players did he net us after that dynasty? or was cashman at fault for not knowing more than stick when they drafted Eric duncan? john griffin? david parrish? why didnt gene net us more awesome dynasty prospects since he was incharge of our scouting? i guess that was cashmans fault also


    also how is it that we just barely qualified for post season by having one of the top records, i would understnd if we just made it due to the wild card but we have had best records for years. a lot of factors take into account, most teams that just make it are the ones who end up winning it all

    too many factors, its not brian, nor gene, nor gm, nor manger, nor players or opponents, baseball is too dependent of too many factors
    First of all, maybe I was a little harsh and I realize you have been critical of Cashman on occasion (I know your stance on Montero)

    Here's the thing. If George had frittered away those players I couldnt blame Michael and you couldn't blame Michael. That would be George being George and I don't think anyone in PSDland would expect Michael to be able to countermand the Boss.

    No one really knows why Michael is here and not a king somewhere else. Could be his allegiance to the franchise. Could be his love of Yankee prestige. Could be his seriously advanced age has dwindled his motivation/workload so I can't really see using that as an arguement IMO.

    I would also put forth that all of the trifecta put together those dynasty rosters. Showalter is widely respected as one of the best talent evaluators in the game. Problem is he's like the entrepreneur who knows how to build a phenomenal product but then has minimal skill set to run it. I think we're also overburdening Michael while forgetting Watson.

    That trifecta made the right protections, implemented the right developmental programs and yes had some good breaks to get them the gold.

    But let's face it, Cashman hasnt failed over one, two, or even three years. This has been going on for a decade. We've overhyped, overvalued, and overprotected prospects well beyond their trade apex time and time again. We've repeatedly made c-grade, bargain basement signings to patch on the cheap and when these guys perform right up to their market expectations we scratch our heads year in and year out wonderring how we could've fallen apart against superior playoff competition year in and year out.

    I've said my endorsements of Cashman many times in the past and like I stated in the last post, the underperformance of some of those players shouldnt be shouldered by him.

    But this has been going on for the better part of ten years and now age and Sir Hal are about to compound our troubles greatly.
    Last edited by sauronthepower; 12-31-2012 at 12:05 AM.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    First of all, maybe I was a little harsh and I realize you have been critical of Cashman on occasion (I know your stance on Montero)

    Here's the thing. If George had frittered away those players I couldnt blame Michael and you couldn't blame Michael. That would be George being George and I don't think anyone in PSDland would expect Michael to be able to countermand the Boss.

    No one really knows why Michael is here and not a king somewhere else. Could be his allegiance to the franchise. Could be his love of Yankee prestige. Could be his seriously advanced age has dwindled his motivation/workload so I can't really see using that as an arguement IMO.

    I would also put forth that all of the trifecta put together those dynasty rosters. Showalter is widely respected as one of the best talent evaluators in the game. Problem is he's like the entrepreneur who knows how to build a phenomenal product but then has minimal skill set to run it. I think we're also overburdening Michael while forgetting Watson.

    That trifecta made the right protections, implemented the right developmental programs and yes had some good breaks to get them the gold.

    But let's face it, Cashman hasnt failed over one, two, or even three years. This has been going on for a decade. We've overhyped, overvalued, and overprotected prospects well beyond their trade apex time and time again. We've repeatedly made c-grade, bargain basement signings to patch on the cheap and when these guys perform right up to their market expectations we scratch our heads year in and year out wonderring how we could've fallen apart against superior playoff competition year in and year out.

    I've said my endorsements of Cashman many times in the past and like I stated in the last post, the underperformance of some of those players shouldnt be shouldered by him.

    But this has been going on for the better part of ten years and now age and Sir Hal are about to compound our troubles greatly.

    What were the Bob Watson trades?
    Nick

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    What were the Bob Watson trades?
    The Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson trade was a big one. The Cecil Fielder trade also come to mind.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    If Cano, Grandy, Hughes, Pettitte and Kuroda were traded.
    Which they're NOT.....not in the real world where I choose to live.
    The REAL DEAL Yankee fan

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    The Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson trade was a big one. The Cecil Fielder trade also come to mind.
    David Cone and Ruben Sierra as well (though i gotta say that George was clearly foaming at the mouth on that day in 95 when he got BOTH guys at the same time). I think that mr. rrzubnyy either missed the tone of my point or was trying to nitpick and cherrypick (maybe not maliciously) certain parts of it with that response.

    My point was that it was about overall organizational management from the GM's position, not whether Watson specifically tanked one or was overrated (which clearly he wasn't).
    Last edited by sauronthepower; 12-31-2012 at 01:00 PM.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    David Cone and Ruben Sierra as well (though i gotta say that George was clearly foaming at the mouth on that day in 95 when he got BOTH guys at the same time).
    Watson had nothing to do with Cone or Sierra.

    Both guys were acquired on July 28, 1995.

    Watson became the GM on October 23, 1995.

    Watson also had nothing to do with the acquisitions of Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mariano, or Posada, all of whom were in the system when he became GM. (He does get credit for talking the Boss out of trading Posada for Mike Stanley though.)

    Watson does get credit for:

    Tino Martinez
    Jeff Nelson
    Mariano Duncan
    Joe Girardi
    Cecil Fielder
    Charlie Hayes
    David Weathers
    Mike Aldrete
    Luis Sojo

  7. #127
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Watson had nothing to do with Cone or Sierra.

    Both guys were acquired on July 28, 1995.

    Watson became the GM on October 23, 1995.

    Watson also had nothing to do with the acquisitions of Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mariano, or Posada, all of whom were in the system when he became GM. (He does get credit for talking the Boss out of trading Posada for Mike Stanley though.)

    Watson does get credit for:

    Tino Martinez
    Jeff Nelson
    Mariano Duncan
    Joe Girardi
    Cecil Fielder
    Charlie Hayes
    David Weathers
    Mike Aldrete
    Luis Sojo
    My bad on that one. In my zeal, I had forgotten about the lag between the Developmental
    Showalter/Stick years and the Watson era.
    Last edited by sauronthepower; 12-31-2012 at 05:47 PM.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  9. 12-31-2012, 05:38 PM

  10. #129
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    i ve been saying since the season ended and it was made know they were going to get under 189 at all costs by next yr i was all for drastic steps.

    Personally i would be trying to workout a deal with Cano now. If he won't back off the huge 10yr deal he's looking for i would find the best deal we could get and trade him. We have Adams & Joesph that are pretty much MLB ready that could step in and probably be above average. Even though he only has 1 yr left he's still the best 2nd baseman in baseball and we would get quite a haul for him. Letting him walk for nothing more than a draft pick is one of the stupidest plans i ve ever heard.

    With Grandy i would be listening to deals for him and depending how the season goes especially if were a ways outs of it at the deadline trade him. Teams that look like they could be real contenders are always looking for a power bat and tend to overpay for them at the deadline. IMO we could get a couple of real good prospects for him then similar to what the Mets got for Beltran.

    i ve been saying for a long time if Hughes had a pretty good yr like he did last yr i would have looked to trade him for the best deal we could get. Again depending on how the season goes we might be able to get something pretty good for him at the deadline if he's having another good season similar to what the Marlins got for Sanchez last yr.

    I'm not sure what they could get for Joba right now teams prefer to sign relief pitchers this time of yr rather than trade for them. If Joba is having a good yr i would definitely trade him at the deadline. Teams are always looking for late inning relief help at the deadline and i don't think their much of a chance he's back with us next yr. Its highly unlikely they give him a qualifying offer next yr and getting something for him is better than getting nothing.

    Other than working out a deal with Cano and if not trading him before the season starts i would wait on the rest till the deadline. If it looks like were not going to make the playoffs we have some very good assets we could move at the deadline that would greatly speed up our rebuilding process. I doubt that the Yanks would become sellers at the deadline because of the ego's in the front office but i really believe it way better to get all the prospects we can if were out of the playoff picture at deadline that would really speed up the rebuilding process that were going to go through
    Last edited by dayners81; 01-01-2013 at 06:13 AM.

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    i ve been saying since the season ended and it was made know they were going to get under 189 at all costs by next yr i was all for drastic steps.

    Personally i would be trying to workout a deal with Cano now. If he won't back off the huge 10yr deal he's looking for i would find the best deal we could get and trade him. We have Adams & Joesph that are pretty much MLB ready that could step in and probably be above average. Even though he only has 1 yr left he's still the best 2nd baseman in baseball and we would get quite a haul for him. Letting him walk for nothing more than a draft pick is one of the stupidest plans i ve ever heard.

    With Grandy i would be listening to deals for him and depending how the season goes especially if were a ways outs of it at the deadline trade him. Teams that look like they could be real contenders are always looking for a power bat and tend to overpay for them at the deadline. IMO we could get a couple of real good prospects for him then similar to what the Mets got for Beltran.

    i ve been saying for a long time if Hughes had a pretty good yr like he did last yr i would have looked to trade him for the best deal we could get. Again depending on how the season goes we might be able to get something pretty good for him at the deadline if he's having another good season similar to what the Marlins got for Sanchez last yr.

    I'm not sure what they could get for Joba right now teams prefer to sign relief pitchers this time of yr rather than trade for them. If Joba is having a good yr i would definitely trade him at the deadline. Teams are always looking for late inning relief help at the deadline and i don't think their much of a chance he's back with us next yr. Its highly unlikely they give him a qualifying offer next yr and getting something for him is better than getting nothing.

    Other than working out a deal with Cano and if not trading him before the season starts i would wait on the rest till the deadline. If it looks like were not going to make the playoffs we have some very good assets we could move at the deadline that would greatly speed up our rebuilding process. I doubt that the Yanks would become sellers at the deadline because of the ego's in the front office but i really believe it way better to get all the prospects we can if were out of the playoff picture at deadline that would really speed up the rebuilding process that were going to go through
    I think if we've learned anything over the years it's that Brian Cashman is a GM that either doesn't pull the trigger when he needs to or does so dismissively with what he gives away in relation to what he's getting back. His record speaks for itself. He's only reluctantly decided to listen to offers for Granderson only because they need to keep under the 189 million mark, and as far as I can tell, we haven't heard one rumor of anyone even calling Cashman about Granderson. I get the feeling that Granderson is still kind of hands off regardless of what Cashman may have said to the media. Both Hughes and Nova should be on the block as well.

    I wouldn't even give Cano a 7 year deal. No player after 30 is worth more than 6 years, tops. All these mega deals are just stupid. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the yankees gave Cano an 8-10 year deal. It's stupidity at it's finest. If they let him go for a draft pick then they are equally as stupid. I still can't believe what the Rangers lost for not wanting to trade Hamilton.

    As for Joba, I can see no conceivable reason why he would want to stay with the yankees, unless he's probably so beaten down that he no longer cares about his career or money. If I'm him I'd want to be a closer or starter for some team. The very last thing I'd want is to remain a 6th or 7th inning guy making 2-3 million a year. That's just bulls-hit.



    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    First of all, maybe I was a little harsh and I realize you have been critical of Cashman on occasion (I know your stance on Montero)

    Here's the thing. If George had frittered away those players I couldnt blame Michael and you couldn't blame Michael. That would be George being George and I don't think anyone in PSDland would expect Michael to be able to countermand the Boss.

    No one really knows why Michael is here and not a king somewhere else. Could be his allegiance to the franchise. Could be his love of Yankee prestige. Could be his seriously advanced age has dwindled his motivation/workload so I can't really see using that as an arguement IMO.

    I would also put forth that all of the trifecta put together those dynasty rosters. Showalter is widely respected as one of the best talent evaluators in the game. Problem is he's like the entrepreneur who knows how to build a phenomenal product but then has minimal skill set to run it. I think we're also overburdening Michael while forgetting Watson.

    That trifecta made the right protections, implemented the right developmental programs and yes had some good breaks to get them the gold.

    But let's face it, Cashman hasnt failed over one, two, or even three years. This has been going on for a decade. We've overhyped, overvalued, and overprotected prospects well beyond their trade apex time and time again. We've repeatedly made c-grade, bargain basement signings to patch on the cheap and when these guys perform right up to their market expectations we scratch our heads year in and year out wonderring how we could've fallen apart against superior playoff competition year in and year out.

    I've said my endorsements of Cashman many times in the past and like I stated in the last post, the underperformance of some of those players shouldnt be shouldered by him.

    But this has been going on for the better part of ten years and now age and Sir Hal are about to compound our troubles greatly.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.

    - Mark Twain

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Watson had nothing to do with Cone or Sierra.

    Both guys were acquired on July 28, 1995.

    Watson became the GM on October 23, 1995.

    Watson also had nothing to do with the acquisitions of Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mariano, or Posada, all of whom were in the system when he became GM. (He does get credit for talking the Boss out of trading Posada for Mike Stanley though.)

    Watson does get credit for:

    Tino Martinez
    Jeff Nelson
    Mariano Duncan
    Joe Girardi
    Cecil Fielder
    Charlie Hayes
    David Weathers
    Mike Aldrete
    Luis Sojo
    He may get the credit but Watson and Cashman were basically puppet GMs during the George Steinbrenner reign. There was the Tampa group and the New York clan. Both brought suggestions to George and he made the final call with the Tampa people having the most input. These two decision makers caused a serious fractured organization with the Tampa people always in George's ear and backstabbing Cashman....Finally around 2007 when Torre was let go Cashman got full control or he threatened to leave the Yanks. But the crap started again when Levine signed Soriano as Cashman was clearly against it.....Basically a huge power struggle within the Yankees.
    Nick

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayners81 View Post
    i ve been saying since the season ended and it was made know they were going to get under 189 at all costs by next yr i was all for drastic steps.

    Personally i would be trying to workout a deal with Cano now. If he won't back off the huge 10yr deal he's looking for i would find the best deal we could get and trade him. We have Adams & Joesph that are pretty much MLB ready that could step in and probably be above average. Even though he only has 1 yr left he's still the best 2nd baseman in baseball and we would get quite a haul for him. Letting him walk for nothing more than a draft pick is one of the stupidest plans i ve ever heard.

    With Grandy i would be listening to deals for him and depending how the season goes especially if were a ways outs of it at the deadline trade him. Teams that look like they could be real contenders are always looking for a power bat and tend to overpay for them at the deadline. IMO we could get a couple of real good prospects for him then similar to what the Mets got for Beltran.

    i ve been saying for a long time if Hughes had a pretty good yr like he did last yr i would have looked to trade him for the best deal we could get. Again depending on how the season goes we might be able to get something pretty good for him at the deadline if he's having another good season similar to what the Marlins got for Sanchez last yr.

    I'm not sure what they could get for Joba right now teams prefer to sign relief pitchers this time of yr rather than trade for them. If Joba is having a good yr i would definitely trade him at the deadline. Teams are always looking for late inning relief help at the deadline and i don't think their much of a chance he's back with us next yr. Its highly unlikely they give him a qualifying offer next yr and getting something for him is better than getting nothing.

    Other than working out a deal with Cano and if not trading him before the season starts i would wait on the rest till the deadline. If it looks like were not going to make the playoffs we have some very good assets we could move at the deadline that would greatly speed up our rebuilding process. I doubt that the Yanks would become sellers at the deadline because of the ego's in the front office but i really believe it way better to get all the prospects we can if were out of the playoff picture at deadline that would really speed up the rebuilding process that were going to go through

    Why was the torch never passed from Jeter to Cano?

    Jeter got his big deal for $180 million for 10 years and he never could do what Cano has done with the bat and glove?

    Why can't Cano get his day in the sun?
    Last edited by rrzubnyy; 01-01-2013 at 07:43 AM.
    Nick

  14. #133
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    Cano should be resigned!

    His power numbers are increasing and it should be sustainable for another 6 years at the very least....give him an 8/200 deal and end this crap of trading him...he is the Yankees best hitter period!

    Jeter got his big money and why not Cano who is a much better fielder and a better hitter?
    Nick

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    He may get the credit but Watson and Cashman were basically puppet GMs during the George Steinbrenner reign. There was the Tampa group and the New York clan. Both brought suggestions to George and he made the final call with the Tampa people having the most input. These two decision makers caused a serious fractured organization with the Tampa people always in George's ear and backstabbing Cashman....Finally around 2007 when Torre was let go Cashman got full control or he threatened to leave the Yanks. But the crap started again when Levine signed Soriano as Cashman was clearly against it.....Basically a huge power struggle within the Yankees.
    This is true and it's one reason why it's hard to give credit or assign blame to GMs for moves made or not made. All we know is what we find out, sometimes years after the fact.

  16. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    He may get the credit but Watson and Cashman were basically puppet GMs during the George Steinbrenner reign. There was the Tampa group and the New York clan. Both brought suggestions to George and he made the final call with the Tampa people having the most input. These two decision makers caused a serious fractured organization with the Tampa people always in George's ear and backstabbing Cashman....Finally around 2007 when Torre was let go Cashman got full control or he threatened to leave the Yanks. But the crap started again when Levine signed Soriano as Cashman was clearly against it.....Basically a huge power struggle within the Yankees.
    Interesting though, how Cashman SPECIFICALLY addressed this regional infighting at his 2006 contract renewal saying he wanted complete franchise decision making control, answerable only to George.

    And we now know that George was on his way out anyway so who's left to shoulder the accountibility, might I ask?


    And so, a new era begins.....

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