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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    10 teams make the playoffs nowadays. The Mets have some good pieces. If they sign an outfield they could be interesting to watch. Regardless, the idea that if a team isn't a championship contender they're excused from making any effort to improve is nuts.

    MLB is not the NBA or NFL where moving up a few positions in the draft makes a difference. Look at the list of perennial contenders and you'll find very few have gotten most of their key players by tanking whole seasons.

    StoicSentry's analysis, that it'll be impossible to acquire all the pieces you need in a single off-season and some will need to be free agent signings, makes more sense.
    The Mets have some good pieces? Like who? They just dealt their ace pitcher for top quality prospects. We have an all-star 3rd baseman surrounded by mediocrity. Ike has potential to be an above average 1B if he hits lefties better and plays the way he did in the 2nd half. We have a solid rotation with question marks in Harvey, Niese, Gee, and maybe Santana. That's it really.

    Murphy is not the answer at 2B, Tejada is a good SS but doesn't provide much with the bat, and the outfield on paper sucks. Our bullpen right now is pathetic, so hopefully that improves. There was no one we could have gotten to make all of our holes better long term. D'Arnaud gives us some hope at catcher, an offensively scarce position. There are some intruiging outfield options for next year, and maybe a 2B to replace Murphy.

    The higher the draft slot, the more options to choose from. The cumulative WAR within the Top 10 is better than the rest historically for the most part. It makes a difference, and having that Top 10 protected pick means you can go out and sign multiple top free agents without losing your first pick. That is perfect for a rebuilding team trying to compete without sacraficing top end talent.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    The Mets have some good pieces? Like who? They just dealt their ace pitcher for top quality prospects. We have an all-star 3rd baseman surrounded by mediocrity. Ike has potential to be an above average 1B if he hits lefties better and plays the way he did in the 2nd half. We have a solid rotation with question marks in Harvey, Niese, Gee, and maybe Santana. That's it really.

    Murphy is not the answer at 2B, Tejada is a good SS but doesn't provide much with the bat, and the outfield on paper sucks. Our bullpen right now is pathetic, so hopefully that improves. There was no one we could have gotten to make all of our holes better long term. D'Arnaud gives us some hope at catcher, an offensively scarce position. There are some intruiging outfield options for next year, and maybe a 2B to replace Murphy.

    The higher the draft slot, the more options to choose from. The cumulative WAR within the Top 10 is better than the rest historically for the most part. It makes a difference, and having that Top 10 protected pick means you can go out and sign multiple top free agents without losing your first pick. That is perfect for a rebuilding team trying to compete without sacraficing top end talent.
    The Mets have a better infield than the World Champion Giants (though that's not saying much). Point is, with a decent outfield the season could be interesting to watch. The MLB draft has almost no sure things. Even if you tank a season, get the number one pick and the pick turns out perfectly, a single player makes little difference when surrounded by garbage. Even in the top 10 you get more failure than great success. The idea it's preferable to tank several seasons to get a handful of long shots in the draft is nuts. If this were the case the Pirates and Royals would be perennial champions.

    Not signing anyone is all about the Wilpons skimming more money from the Mets.

  3. #48
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    Why waste resources on a team that is not ready to compete and has no core yet? That is what I don't understand. Just because you can spend money, doesn't mean you should.

    When the pieces are in place and our core develops, then I will be on board with spending. I'm hoping we can suck just enough next year so that we have a Top 10 protected pick for 2014.

    In theory we can get a Corey Hart and Aaron Hill without losing our first pick. They would dramatically imrprove the offense without crushing the farm. I wouldn't count out the Mets signing Dariel Alvarez either this year.
    Last edited by YoungStuna; 12-26-2012 at 02:55 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Why waste resources on a team that is not ready to compete and has no core yet? That is what I don't understand. Just because you can spend money, doesn't mean you should.

    When the pieces are in place and our core develops, then I will be on board with spending. I'm hoping we can suck just enough next year so that we have a Top 10 protected pick for 2014.

    In theory we can get a Corey Hart and Aaron Hill which will dramtically imrprove the offense. I wouldn't count out the Mets signing Dariel Alvarez either this year.
    Baseball's last three World Champions have been pretty mediocre. The expanded playoff system rewards this. The Mets started off last year 46-40. Ownership quit on the team by refusing to get any bullpen arms, so the team then quit on ownership.

    Next year Harvey will get a full season and Wheeler should be in the rotation later. Ike should be healthy and performing better from the start of the season. There's a core of sorts. It's small and not fully proven, but it's all there is. The only way to improve the team is to get better players. By restricting acquisition to the cheapest ways possible it becomes an unnecessarily long, ugly process. And prices for tickets are going up, not down. Why should anybody waste their time or money watching this team if ownership isn't making any effort?

    Make an effort to get more good players and anything could happen. Make no effort and nothing will happen.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Baseball's last three World Champions have been pretty mediocre. The expanded playoff system rewards this. The Mets started off last year 46-40. Ownership quit on the team by refusing to get any bullpen arms, so the team then quit on ownership.

    Next year Harvey will get a full season and Wheeler should be in the rotation later. Ike should be healthy and performing better from the start of the season. There's a core of sorts. It's small and not fully proven, but it's all there is. The only way to improve the team is to get better players. By restricting acquisition to the cheapest ways possible it becomes an unnecessarily long, ugly process. And prices for tickets are going up, not down. Why should anybody waste their time or money watching this team if ownership isn't making any effort?

    Make an effort to get more good players and anything could happen. Make no effort and nothing will happen.
    The Cardinals were not mediocre, they had a superstar in Pujols and a nice supporting core of offensive players. The pitching stepped up. The Giants have a tremendous pen and a great rotation. They got a lot of clutch hits and that is why they won twice. We are not even close to those teams. We only won with 73 games with Dickey's excellence last season.

    I don't buy into the players quitting on the season because ownership didn't give them support. Fact is, they were already collapsing before the trade deadline and they were playing way over their heads with the unsustainable 2 out RBI and Wright's incredible run. If the players quit, we should replace them because those aren't the type of players I want on my team.

    We have nice pieces for the future, but it won't come together in 2013. There will be reason to watch because we will have young excitig players to look for in Harvey, Wheeler, D'Arnaud, and our potential hard throwing pen.

    Just curious, what players would you have liked to see the Mets get this off-season?

  6. #51
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    What players should they have gotten? Practically any MLB outfielders would be better than what we have now. The bullpen is a mystery again, too.

    The Mets are a team that generates a lot of revenue. Ownership takes this revenue and puts it in their pockets. They reinvest the barest minimum back in the Mets. The result is a weak, highly deficient team. Because some are Mets fans they feel obligated to defend this situation because it's painted orange and blue. I never understood that. It's indefensible.

    Nobody will ever be able to sell me choking the team off from its own revenue as somehow being necessary or desirable.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Why waste resources on a team that is not ready to compete and has no core yet? That is what I don't understand. Just because you can spend money, doesn't mean you should.

    When the pieces are in place and our core develops, then I will be on board with spending. I'm hoping we can suck just enough next year so that we have a Top 10 protected pick for 2014.

    In theory we can get a Corey Hart and Aaron Hill without losing our first pick. They would dramatically imrprove the offense without crushing the farm. I wouldn't count out the Mets signing Dariel Alvarez either this year.

    But all that is magically going to fall into place without improving the team?

    Why overpay Hill or Hart? they're not going to make a difference.

    I'll count the Mets out of signing Alvarez right now.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg42 View Post
    I'll wait until after this season to see if they're serious about spending money or not. It is the right thing to do to not overpay for a few meaningless wins in 2013, because 2013 is going to be a 4th place year no matter what. Besides, a bad 2013 = a higher draft pick. It's really about 2015 and beyond. Patience!!!!!
    Now it's 2015 and beyond?

    LOL!!!

    What's next?

    'Wait until 2017 then we'll show 'em'.?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coupon View Post
    Nobody will ever be able to sell me choking the team off from its own revenue as somehow being necessary or desirable.
    Agree. I also agree with YS that the talent isn't there for it to make sense to go all in right now. I wouldn't give up a first round pick at this stage to add a 32-year old Nick Swisher, for example.

    But the talent isn't there because they already decided to dump most of their best talent. They already gave away an all-star SS, traded a star OF and middle lineup bat, traded another above average OF who was under 30, and traded a Cy Young winning ace. So yeah, there aren't that many pieces left, but that was a choice.

    At this point, we aren't going for it in 2012, as our best talents are already traded, and the best free agents are already signed. So 2012 should be a year of breaking in lots of young talents like Wheeler, Harvey, d'Arnaud, maybe Mejia or Familia, and maybe hoping guys like Tejada, Valdespin, Gee, Niese and Nieuwenhuis still have a little more room for growth.

    But I'm not rooting for any top 10 draft picks, either. I'd much rather see the above players perform enough to get us to over 80 wins at least, and I'll gladly then part with that one draft pick next year assuming there are guys worth spending on to fill the remaining holes.

    Sandy has had 2 years now of patient waiting for the farm system to develop, without making an effort to field a truly competitive MLB team. It looks like 2013 will be a 3rd. If the end result of all this waiting eventually gets us a championship, that will be one thing. But if the result is that after 5-6 years we are back to something like the 89 win team we were on average over Minaya's first 4 years, I wouldn't consider that any great achievement.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Agree. I also agree with YS that the talent isn't there for it to make sense to go all in right now. I wouldn't give up a first round pick at this stage to add a 32-year old Nick Swisher, for example.

    But the talent isn't there because they already decided to dump most of their best talent. They already gave away an all-star SS, traded a star OF and middle lineup bat, traded another above average OF who was under 30, and traded a Cy Young winning ace. So yeah, there aren't that many pieces left, but that was a choice.

    At this point, we aren't going for it in 2012, as our best talents are already traded, and the best free agents are already signed. So 2012 should be a year of breaking in lots of young talents like Wheeler, Harvey, d'Arnaud, maybe Mejia or Familia, and maybe hoping guys like Tejada, Valdespin, Gee, Niese and Nieuwenhuis still have a little more room for growth.

    But I'm not rooting for any top 10 draft picks, either. I'd much rather see the above players perform enough to get us to over 80 wins at least, and I'll gladly then part with that one draft pick next year assuming there are guys worth spending on to fill the remaining holes.

    Sandy has had 2 years now of patient waiting for the farm system to develop, without making an effort to field a truly competitive MLB team. It looks like 2013 will be a 3rd. If the end result of all this waiting eventually gets us a championship, that will be one thing. But if the result is that after 5-6 years we are back to something like the 89 win team we were on average over Minaya's first 4 years, I wouldn't consider that any great achievement.


    Sandy Alderson has got nowhere near Omar Minaya so far...nevermind getting to 89 wins even once, or equalling what his team team did (which let's fdce it, wasn't much), they haven't even finished above 4th yet...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Sandy Alderson has got nowhere near Omar Minaya so far...nevermind getting to 89 wins even once, or equalling what his team team did (which let's fdce it, wasn't much), they haven't even finished above 4th yet...
    Yup. Omar did take over after the team already had 3 seasons of 4th or 5th place finishes. But the haul from the high 1st round draft picks earned those three years? Kazmir, Milledge, and Humber. You can't say that group had too much to do with Omar's success.

    Omar meanwhile landed Ike Davis at #18, with one of those bottom half of the round picks that winning teams get. And on the two occasions in which he got to pick after having a losing record, he landed Mike Pelfrey and Matt Harvey.

    Again, not that Omar was especially good. But if we have to suffer through 4-5 years of losing to implement a better long term strategy, then the payoff better be damned good. Getting back to 85-89 wins at this point shouldn't necessarily be judged a great success.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    Why waste resources on a team that is not ready to compete and has no core yet? That is what I don't understand. Just because you can spend money, doesn't mean you should.

    When the pieces are in place and our core develops, then I will be on board with spending. I'm hoping we can suck just enough next year so that we have a Top 10 protected pick for 2014.

    In theory we can get a Corey Hart and Aaron Hill without losing our first pick. They would dramatically imrprove the offense without crushing the farm. I wouldn't count out the Mets signing Dariel Alvarez either this year.
    This... Your referring to one of the most important parts of rebuilding. When rebuilding you build up your farm and keep spending to a minimum. This free's up money so that once your "CORE" of homegrown players is set in place you assess your weaknesses and plug in a free agent or two or a trade of younger prospects to fill your roster with a team that can compete for a championship.

    Its unrealistic to think you can build an entire championship caliber team through trades and the farm system. The Rays seem to be the closest team to doing so but so far outside of being competitive every year they haven't won a thing.

    Now if you take the Rays Blue Print which Sandy seems to be trying to follow with building from within and then one your team is competitive you go out and spend 130 Million on a Josh Hamilton, Justin Upton, Prince Fielder TYPE of player it makes a competitive team into a Championship Caliber team. Lets face it, pitching has always won Championships in baseball just like Defense has always won Championships in football. However times are changing. Offense now wins Championships in football and you need an Offense to win in Major League Baseball. Take Aubrey Huff off that Giants team that won first World Series and that team doesn't win it. Take Pence off this years World Series team and you probably don't get the same result.

    I guess what I am trying to say is this year may not be the right year to spend. Thats a Kansas City Royals type of move and they never win a thing. Always adding an over priced free agent or overpriced trade when they are far from contention it just doesn't conduce winning.

    Our IF is fine. If we can upgrade second then thats great but you can def live with Murphy at second providing you add power and defense else wear.

    Once Harvey, Wheeler, TDA, a bit of Bullpen and atleast 1 outfielder are in place then it is time to sign a big bat and a top of the rotation type of pitcher or closer.


    Presenting the 2013 New York Mets Outfield.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Sandy Alderson has got nowhere near Omar Minaya so far...nevermind getting to 89 wins even once, or equalling what his team team did (which let's fdce it, wasn't much), they haven't even finished above 4th yet...
    That is because Omar went "all in" immediately upon being hired. SA is running the race of the tortoise. Omar had some success, but ultimately was deemed a failure by the bottom line, winning consistently and a WS Championship. SA's strategy is viable too, but his moves will eventually need to pan out to be judged a success according to the same bottom line.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Yup. Omar did take over after the team already had 3 seasons of 4th or 5th place finishes. But the haul from the high 1st round draft picks earned those three years? Kazmir, Milledge, and Humber. You can't say that group had too much to do with Omar's success.

    Omar meanwhile landed Ike Davis at #18, with one of those bottom half of the round picks that winning teams get. And on the two occasions in which he got to pick after having a losing record, he landed Mike Pelfrey and Matt Harvey.

    Again, not that Omar was especially good. But if we have to suffer through 4-5 years of losing to implement a better long term strategy, then the payoff better be damned good. Getting back to 85-89 wins at this point shouldn't necessarily be judged a great success.

    So far Omar wins hands down, Alderson isn't even under any pressure to win at all, his job isn't under threat in any event. Three wasted years already, and no plan for 2014 that makes any sense. Meanwhile, the real job behind the scenes to make the Mets a small-market team continues unabated.

    4-5 years of losing? we've been 'losing 'since 2006 IMO. 2013 will be the 7th consecutive year without the post-season, since the WS in 2000, we have been to the playoffs ONCE.

    85-89 wins means nothing to me, I want a WS winning team. That's why I consider the choke jobs of '07 and '08 as lousy seasons, whereas those who are happy with mediocrity think they constitute success.

    Yeah, I'm a tough crowd.

    But this is NY, and we're up against the NYY.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Sandy Alderson has got nowhere near Omar Minaya so far...nevermind getting to 89 wins even once, or equalling what his team team did (which let's fdce it, wasn't much), they haven't even finished above 4th yet...
    Omar was allowed to spend and had a foundation of Wright and Reyes to to start with. Its comparing Apples to Oranges.

    For the most part Minaya did a good job but the Perez and Castillo signings along with Maine getting injured and Delgado hitting grandfather time all at once really destroyed the team and set us back for years. Although all those collapses are the fault of 2 people.

    Duaner Sanchez and his cab driver. If it wasn't for the late night taxi ride this organization could have went in a completely different direction. Nady may not have been the greatest player in the world but he was clutch and gave our lineup that extra UMPH. Losing his and Sanchez prob cost us the WS as well as those late year collapses the two following years.

    Anyways back onto the original topic.

    McFly - Your really can't blame Sandy for what has gone on with this team. Do you really think he chose to let Reyes walk? I mean C'mon getting the prospects he got for Beltran and Dickey were big wins for us. Yeah we did still lose a CY Young winner and an All Star rightfielder but what do you expect him to do with the resources he has been given? It was the best decision he could have made with the resources available to him.

    P.S. Don't think for one second it was his choice to hold onto Reyes at the deadline and let him walk for nothing. That has the Wilpons stench all over it.


    Presenting the 2013 New York Mets Outfield.

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