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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY_Heartbreakk
    Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, Atlanta Braves. These teams build from within and have smart drafts. They don't all spend like the Yankees. Hell, not even the Yankees spent like the Yankees until relatively recently.
    Tampa Bay? TAMPA BAY?

    1st, we're in NY. There should be money available. I'm not asking for Yankees money or Red Sox money or Phillies money.

    But there is a HUGE difference between being the Yankees, handing out huge contracts to guys like A Rod that become big wastes... and being a small market team in a constant state of rebuilding.

    If you have no hope then all I can say is to stop following the team. What else are you looking for? If being a Mets fan brings your life so much misery, just stop. If you look at things objectively, we're better off now than in 2008-2011. Were you all complaining this much back then?

    Just relax and watch baseball. Christ.
    1. I don't have no hope. I do have hope. I just happen to have questions, too, and don't like the feeling of being jerked around by this front office. I have hope because I see that we are adding solid young pieces to build around. I have questions because I wonder whether the FO is willing to help those young pieces out with quality FA signings. Honestly, at this point, what Mets fan DOESN'T have the questions that I have?

    2. Being a Mets fan doesn't bring my life "such misery." I enjoy being a Mets fan, as masochistic as that sounds. I wish the Mets were on right now.

    3. We are *NOT* more competitive than we were in 2008-2011. We are much LESS competitive. Now we ARE better off than we were in 2008-2011 if you take the long-term perspective. But that future that we're building? It's all for nothing if we don't spend at some point.

    Was I complaining that much back then? I didn't complain too much then.

    Heck, I don't feel like I'm complaining right now. I think "expressing concern" or "being skeptical/curious" would be a more fitting phrase.

    I have generally been very optimistic about the organization. You can ask some of the bigger doubters... such as Coupon or Marty McFly. Up until recently, I had not voiced much doubt at all.

    For that matter, I was very pleased with the R.A. Dickey trade, and as much as I hated seeing him leave, I understood it completely.

    What made me so negative all the sudden? The major thing was listening to Sandy and Jeff tell me that we have a good degree of "payroll flexibility" this off-season and then... they did nothing with that supposed flexibility. Like, that's not even an exaggeration. They did precisely nothing. They are the only team that hasn't signed a single free agent. Not one! At what point is it fair to ask ourselves whether we are being lied to?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Hey guys... maybe we should start giving out ridiculous contracts to guys like Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, and Jason Bay.... whatcha think?

    Dumb.... we're doing a great job rebuilding. At this point we'll have to wait and see if our young guys turn out good, and we could have a nice foundation of Wright, Ike, d'Arnaud, Harvey, Wheeler, Niese, with Syndergaard joining in a couple yrs... I'm confident if these guys are all good-very good, we'll make some decent signings to help the team.

    What we've been doing hasn't been working, obviously.... let's try this and see what happens.
    Two questions.

    1) Why does signing players to fill gaping holes mean they can't also draft well and develop talent or make other deals for prospects? Why exactly is it a rule the team has to suck year after year on zero budget while developing talent in-house?

    2) Why do you assume every free agent is going to be a flop? If Sandy is so smart shouldn't he be able to sign free agents that perform decently? It seems most other teams are able to do this.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Which OFer should we have signed this yr and for how much? I thought Swisher on a 3 or 4 yr deal would be nice but he got a pretty big contract. Almost as much per yr as Wright will get over the next 8 yrs.... no way we'd spend that much on someone like Swish.
    The issue to me is credibility.

    Just to make a comparison for a moment.

    A few years back, the Knicks started jettisoning payroll. It was painful, obviously, because the team was rebuilding. Rebuilding is always painful.

    People did question ownership's decision making, and for good reason. But one thing you never questioned about the Knicks was whether or not Dolan would shell out to build a contender.

    Due to the Wilpons financial struggles, this becomes a question. If we all knew that they had the resources, then this wouldn't be cause for discussion. But we do not know if they have the resources. We don't.

    Yet they say there is "payroll flexibility" this year.

    I have said the words "Scott Hairston" more times in the past month than I ever care to for the rest of my life. I have no doubt that my focus on this guy must seem rather weird. Bear with me as we add up all the following:

    Scott Hairston, though not impressive, is an extremely affordable option that fits numerous needs the Mets have (They need 3 outfielders, he's an outfielder. They need righties, he's one. They need a little power, he's got some.) Now if people are wondering whether you have the resources to build this team, and if you claim that you have payroll flexibility, and if there's a guy out there that's immensely affordable and can fill all of these holes and you STILL don't sign him... what does that look like to you? To me, it sure looks like a lie.
    Last edited by StoicSentry; 12-24-2012 at 11:37 PM.

  4. #19
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    We are a NY team, we don't have to build like a those small market teams mentioned.
    That being said, I am willing to give Sandy one more year, if by 2014 we are not signing or trading for some high end players, then I just don't see how anyone can defend him, or the Wilpons.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    2nd generation contracts: I keep hearing that Sandy doesn't like to hand out second generation contracts. He obviously made an exception in David Wright's case (to avoid full blown fan mutiny, most likely), but he doesn't like to give them out in general. My question is this: if he doesn't give out 2nd generation contracts, then does that mean that when our payroll drops below a certain figure, say, $50m, that it will never go back over that total? How can you have a competitive payroll when you don't give out 2nd generation contracts? And how can you have a competitive team doing this? Does this mean that, for example, when Wheeler has only 1 year left, that Sandy's philosophy is going to be "let's try to flip him for a Syndergaard type prospect and a throw-in"? That sort of thing? I just don't get it. Because people keep saying our payroll will increase, but how will that happen without 2nd generation contracts?

    As an aside, people are always saying that you overpay when you write a 2nd generation contract, but I don't see how that is the case. Yes, you can get a higher WAR per dollar output from players in your farm system as opposed to big name free agents. But it seems to me, the extra price you pay for these big free agents is some reliability. There's always a chance that a player will be a bust (ala Jason Bay) but it's less likely than the chance that a mere prospect will bust.

    More about payroll: If the Mets truly expect to have cash to spend next off-season, then why couldn't they sign a player this off-season and backload a little extra money of the contract for next year and the year after? Or do something like that?

    We're told that the Mets are waiting until 2014 to make a splash in free agency, as we watch them refuse to sign any MLB free agent (only team that hasn't signed one).

    But here's the thing: we're missing 3 outfielders. Plus perhaps a 2B or if you want to go overboard, a SS as well. At the very least, we're missing 3 outfielders.

    That outfield situation doesn't get any better for a LONG time. The closest impact bat we have on the horizon is Nimmo, and he's several years away at least.

    So in order to be competitive, you're going to need 3 MLB quality outfielders. If the Mets intend on filling ALL of those holes next year, is that really a wise strategy? There ARE other teams in the league, other teams that ALSO need outfielders, and there aren't 20+ good outfielders to go around in free agency. So you ARE going to miss out on SOME of your targets in free agency no matter what you do. That's why I can't understand the idea of trying to fill these holes in one year...

    Far better idea would have been to snatch up ONE of those guys this year and then see what's available next year. What Sandy is doing (if this is what he is doing), well, it seems almost contradictory. He's basically backing himself into a corner by not filling any of our needs this year.

    These are just my humble thoughts, I would not be surprised if I'm wrong about a few things here, these are just my thoughts..
    I totally agree that if he does not make a move this season, then he is backing himself into a difficult spot, but there is a whole season and a long time until the trade deadline. There is no need to jump the gun and make a deal for the sake of winning 6 more games this year and in the process weakening your prospect base. They seem to be in on the discussions with Arizona, but we should bide our time until the best deal presents itself. We need 25 good player not just 3 outfielders.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Voodoo View Post
    I've followed this team for almost a half a century...

    The strategy is to get younger and more financially sound. Sandy is getting it done, and it doesn't happen over night. In fact, my hope is that Johan has a stellar comeback... so we can trade him mid season for a couple of more top prospects.

    Yup... we're going to have warm bodies out there for a couple of years, but soon both the prospects and the money will hit... like they did in the 80s. Hang in there, and Merry Christmas.
    Ty Doctor, It takes someone from "The Great Generation" to put it so succinctly. I don't care what the original motives were for the Wilpons when Sandy came here, they were in total self preservation mode. They.ve spent in the past, they will spend again. Chill baby, sip an egg nog with some Courvosier and Merry Christmas.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    It was OK to lose a few years ago because at least the payroll was high.
    Pardon me for saying this. But, this may be the most inane comment I've ever seen on here. Let me get this straight. Lets overpay and possess a group of underachieving buffoons who don't even run to first base, then lose.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmantrash View Post
    We are a NY team, we don't have to build like a those small market teams mentioned.
    That being said, I am willing to give Sandy one more year, if by 2014 we are not signing or trading for some high end players, then I just don't see how anyone can defend him, or the Wilpons.




    There will be plenty of Mets fans on here defending them, don't you worry. They have bought the 2014 myth hook line and sinker.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    The issue to me is credibility.

    Just to make a comparison for a moment.

    A few years back, the Knicks started jettisoning payroll. It was painful, obviously, because the team was rebuilding. Rebuilding is always painful.

    People did question ownership's decision making, and for good reason. But one thing you never questioned about the Knicks was whether or not Dolan would shell out to build a contender.

    Due to the Wilpons financial struggles, this becomes a question. If we all knew that they had the resources, then this wouldn't be cause for discussion. But we do not know if they have the resources. We don't.

    Yet they say there is "payroll flexibility" this year.

    I have said the words "Scott Hairston" more times in the past month than I ever care to for the rest of my life. I have no doubt that my focus on this guy must seem rather weird. Bear with me as we add up all the following:

    Scott Hairston, though not impressive, is an extremely affordable option that fits numerous needs the Mets have (They need 3 outfielders, he's an outfielder. They need righties, he's one. They need a little power, he's got some.) Now if people are wondering whether you have the resources to build this team, and if you claim that you have payroll flexibility, and if there's a guy out there that's immensely affordable and can fill all of these holes and you STILL don't sign him... what does that look like to you? To me, it sure looks like a lie.




    They have been lying to us about money since 2008, why would they stop now?

    This 'flexibility' nonsense is garbage, what have they actually done? It's just a PR line dude, it has been since the Coupons took over. Every year 'we got flex for the deadline' after they've failed to anything over the Winter, then we get to the deadline and they do nothing again.

    People actually believe that as soon as calendar turns to Oct 2013, that then Coupons magically change their spots and start spending again.

    Ok.

    If they have flex, why aren't they bringing back Hairston ?

    Makes no sense. I think fans actually believe that money not spent now, will be saved and spent next year, I really do. Like they'll put money aside and spend it next year...like a fan would do, if running the team. But the Coupons aren't fans!!!
    Last edited by Marty Mcfly; 12-25-2012 at 07:52 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You and I are on the same page Stoic.

    Here's the thing: I completely understand them not spending money to become a better mediocre team this year. I get that. They have too many holes now to worry about spending for the present.

    The question of course is whether they will be buyers if and when the time comes that it is strategically beneficial to do so.

    I have my doubts.
    I'll wait until after this season to see if they're serious about spending money or not. It is the right thing to do to not overpay for a few meaningless wins in 2013, because 2013 is going to be a 4th place year no matter what. Besides, a bad 2013 = a higher draft pick. It's really about 2015 and beyond. Patience!!!!!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    Tampa Bay? TAMPA BAY?

    1st, we're in NY. There should be money available. I'm not asking for Yankees money or Red Sox money or Phillies money.

    But there is a HUGE difference between being the Yankees, handing out huge contracts to guys like A Rod that become big wastes... and being a small market team in a constant state of rebuilding.



    1. I don't have no hope. I do have hope. I just happen to have questions, too, and don't like the feeling of being jerked around by this front office. I have hope because I see that we are adding solid young pieces to build around. I have questions because I wonder whether the FO is willing to help those young pieces out with quality FA signings. Honestly, at this point, what Mets fan DOESN'T have the questions that I have?

    2. Being a Mets fan doesn't bring my life "such misery." I enjoy being a Mets fan, as masochistic as that sounds. I wish the Mets were on right now.

    3. We are *NOT* more competitive than we were in 2008-2011. We are much LESS competitive. Now we ARE better off than we were in 2008-2011 if you take the long-term perspective. But that future that we're building? It's all for nothing if we don't spend at some point.

    Was I complaining that much back then? I didn't complain too much then.

    Heck, I don't feel like I'm complaining right now. I think "expressing concern" or "being skeptical/curious" would be a more fitting phrase.

    I have generally been very optimistic about the organization. You can ask some of the bigger doubters... such as Coupon or Marty McFly. Up until recently, I had not voiced much doubt at all.

    For that matter, I was very pleased with the R.A. Dickey trade, and as much as I hated seeing him leave, I understood it completely.

    What made me so negative all the sudden? The major thing was listening to Sandy and Jeff tell me that we have a good degree of "payroll flexibility" this off-season and then... they did nothing with that supposed flexibility. Like, that's not even an exaggeration. They did precisely nothing. They are the only team that hasn't signed a single free agent. Not one! At what point is it fair to ask ourselves whether we are being lied to?
    I wasn't speaking directly to you, which is why I didn't quote you. I'm speaking to the general dismay of Mets fans, and if you want to get specific, posters like Coupon and McFly.

    I don't mind negativity. Negativity must exist for there to be positivity. But many posters on this forum do nothing but complain about affairs they have no control over, but more importantly, they complain about things which none but the Wilpons know.

    For that matter, what Coupon and McFly say may very well be true. The Wilpons may be "robbing the Mets blind". But really, who cares? I'm going to avoid the "what can we do about it?" argument, valid as it is. Instead, I would love to address the problem of perspective in this forum.

    It's one thing to be upset because your team lost, another to be upset because your team sucks, but something completely different to be upset because you think there is no hope for your team and ownership is absorbing all the benevolence of its team's fanbase. Enough already.

    If you hate the Wilpons and Sandy so damned much, just follow another team. You're not legally bound to be a Mets fan. Just move on then. For many of you, this is worse than watching a deteriorating marriage.

    Finally, let me qualify this rant by saying I do not disagree with anyone, including McFly and Coupon. You're all entitled to your opinions, and you often bring in quality points. However, I think we can all agree that this is now going beyond the baseball team and is delving into personal desires to rant and complain to parties who you know will push back.

    Let's all just relax and enjoy the game of baseball. Take a deep breath and find some perspective in your lives.
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  12. #27
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    And also, to everyone saying "We are a NY team and should be able to spend". So what? Plainly, who the hell cares? How many World Series did the Yankees win from 2001-2010? In those years, they had the highest or second highest payroll. They won one World Series.

    I could just as well tell you that 2009 was an anomaly the same way you'd tell me they won in 2009 because they dominated the FA market. You do realize that the Yankees dominance in the late 90's was due to an incredible core group of homegrown players, right?

    Not to mention the fact that the fans love, and I mean LOVE, homegrown players monumentally more than they do guys in their late 20's early 30's who sign for $100+ million. Yes, this is tied to success as well. But, please tell me that fans of the Angels love Albert Pujols, one of the game's greatest hitters, who just signed a tremendous deal, more than Giants fans love Buster Posey. Please argue that point. I would love to hear it.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY_Heartbreak View Post
    And also, to everyone saying "We are a NY team and should be able to spend". So what? Plainly, who the hell cares? How many World Series did the Yankees win from 2001-2010? In those years, they had the highest or second highest payroll. They won one World Series.

    I could just as well tell you that 2009 was an anomaly the same way you'd tell me they won in 2009 because they dominated the FA market. You do realize that the Yankees dominance in the late 90's was due to an incredible core group of homegrown players, right?

    Not to mention the fact that the fans love, and I mean LOVE, homegrown players monumentally more than they do guys in their late 20's early 30's who sign for $100+ million. Yes, this is tied to success as well. But, please tell me that fans of the Angels love Albert Pujols, one of the game's greatest hitters, who just signed a tremendous deal, more than Giants fans love Buster Posey. Please argue that point. I would love to hear it.
    Any mets fan would take making the playoffs every year and a championship a decade. Sign me up.

    I completely agree about the preference for homegrown players. Last year we had a great one to whom the Wilpons didn't even bother making an offer. Not exactly fodder for boundless optimism.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinde View Post
    Any mets fan would take making the playoffs every year and a championship a decade. Sign me up.

    I completely agree about the preference for homegrown players. Last year we had a great one to whom the Wilpons didn't even bother making an offer. Not exactly fodder for boundless optimism.
    Yes, I would take a championship a decade as well. My point though was how a team attains that championship.
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  15. #30
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    The entire thing about we are a NY team and we should be spending is ridiculous. At a certain point you just can't keep plugging holes with more money.

    Your going to watch the Phillies run into this problem. They are at maxed payroll with an aging team and no farm system. They are also in a better situation financially then us. They have no way to fix their problems at the moment.

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