Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 127

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    15,540
    vCash
    1500

    A few thoughts on the organization's strategy moving forward...

    2nd generation contracts: I keep hearing that Sandy doesn't like to hand out second generation contracts. He obviously made an exception in David Wright's case (to avoid full blown fan mutiny, most likely), but he doesn't like to give them out in general. My question is this: if he doesn't give out 2nd generation contracts, then does that mean that when our payroll drops below a certain figure, say, $50m, that it will never go back over that total? How can you have a competitive payroll when you don't give out 2nd generation contracts? And how can you have a competitive team doing this? Does this mean that, for example, when Wheeler has only 1 year left, that Sandy's philosophy is going to be "let's try to flip him for a Syndergaard type prospect and a throw-in"? That sort of thing? I just don't get it. Because people keep saying our payroll will increase, but how will that happen without 2nd generation contracts?

    As an aside, people are always saying that you overpay when you write a 2nd generation contract, but I don't see how that is the case. Yes, you can get a higher WAR per dollar output from players in your farm system as opposed to big name free agents. But it seems to me, the extra price you pay for these big free agents is some reliability. There's always a chance that a player will be a bust (ala Jason Bay) but it's less likely than the chance that a mere prospect will bust.

    More about payroll: If the Mets truly expect to have cash to spend next off-season, then why couldn't they sign a player this off-season and backload a little extra money of the contract for next year and the year after? Or do something like that?

    We're told that the Mets are waiting until 2014 to make a splash in free agency, as we watch them refuse to sign any MLB free agent (only team that hasn't signed one).

    But here's the thing: we're missing 3 outfielders. Plus perhaps a 2B or if you want to go overboard, a SS as well. At the very least, we're missing 3 outfielders.

    That outfield situation doesn't get any better for a LONG time. The closest impact bat we have on the horizon is Nimmo, and he's several years away at least.

    So in order to be competitive, you're going to need 3 MLB quality outfielders. If the Mets intend on filling ALL of those holes next year, is that really a wise strategy? There ARE other teams in the league, other teams that ALSO need outfielders, and there aren't 20+ good outfielders to go around in free agency. So you ARE going to miss out on SOME of your targets in free agency no matter what you do. That's why I can't understand the idea of trying to fill these holes in one year...

    Far better idea would have been to snatch up ONE of those guys this year and then see what's available next year. What Sandy is doing (if this is what he is doing), well, it seems almost contradictory. He's basically backing himself into a corner by not filling any of our needs this year.

    These are just my humble thoughts, I would not be surprised if I'm wrong about a few things here, these are just my thoughts..

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    31,041
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    2nd generation contracts: I keep hearing that Sandy doesn't like to hand out second generation contracts. He obviously made an exception in David Wright's case (to avoid full blown fan mutiny, most likely), but he doesn't like to give them out in general. My question is this: if he doesn't give out 2nd generation contracts, then does that mean that when our payroll drops below a certain figure, say, $50m, that it will never go back over that total? How can you have a competitive payroll when you don't give out 2nd generation contracts? And how can you have a competitive team doing this? Does this mean that, for example, when Wheeler has only 1 year left, that Sandy's philosophy is going to be "let's try to flip him for a Syndergaard type prospect and a throw-in"? That sort of thing? I just don't get it. Because people keep saying our payroll will increase, but how will that happen without 2nd generation contracts?

    As an aside, people are always saying that you overpay when you write a 2nd generation contract, but I don't see how that is the case. Yes, you can get a higher WAR per dollar output from players in your farm system as opposed to big name free agents. But it seems to me, the extra price you pay for these big free agents is some reliability. There's always a chance that a player will be a bust (ala Jason Bay) but it's less likely than the chance that a mere prospect will bust.

    More about payroll: If the Mets truly expect to have cash to spend next off-season, then why couldn't they sign a player this off-season and backload a little extra money of the contract for next year and the year after? Or do something like that?

    We're told that the Mets are waiting until 2014 to make a splash in free agency, as we watch them refuse to sign any MLB free agent (only team that hasn't signed one).

    But here's the thing: we're missing 3 outfielders. Plus perhaps a 2B or if you want to go overboard, a SS as well. At the very least, we're missing 3 outfielders.

    That outfield situation doesn't get any better for a LONG time. The closest impact bat we have on the horizon is Nimmo, and he's several years away at least.

    So in order to be competitive, you're going to need 3 MLB quality outfielders. If the Mets intend on filling ALL of those holes next year, is that really a wise strategy? There ARE other teams in the league, other teams that ALSO need outfielders, and there aren't 20+ good outfielders to go around in free agency. So you ARE going to miss out on SOME of your targets in free agency no matter what you do. That's why I can't understand the idea of trying to fill these holes in one year...

    Far better idea would have been to snatch up ONE of those guys this year and then see what's available next year. What Sandy is doing (if this is what he is doing), well, it seems almost contradictory. He's basically backing himself into a corner by not filling any of our needs this year.

    These are just my humble thoughts, I would not be surprised if I'm wrong about a few things here, these are just my thoughts..
    You and I are on the same page Stoic.

    Here's the thing: I completely understand them not spending money to become a better mediocre team this year. I get that. They have too many holes now to worry about spending for the present.

    The question of course is whether they will be buyers if and when the time comes that it is strategically beneficial to do so.

    I have my doubts.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Hill Valley, 1985.
    Posts
    7,792
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You and I are on the same page Stoic.

    Here's the thing: I completely understand them not spending money to become a better mediocre team this year. I get that. They have too many holes now to worry about spending for the present.

    The question of course is whether they will be buyers if and when the time comes that it is strategically beneficial to do so.

    I have my doubts.


    They'll find some new excuses.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    15,540
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You and I are on the same page Stoic.

    Here's the thing: I completely understand them not spending money to become a better mediocre team this year. I get that. They have too many holes now to worry about spending for the present.
    .
    OK, I understand what you're saying here, but I'm coming at this from a different angle.

    Yes, the team is mediocre. Agreed. Yes, no single player or even pair of players would make us a legit contender this year. Agreed again.

    However, what I'm saying is that if they do intend on being legit contenders sooner rather than later, then they should have picked up 2 or at least 1 meaningful free agent this year. I'm saying this because free agency is not a re-draft. Instead, you have limited options. So you have to pick up what you like whenever it becomes available.

    For example, let's say that there are 7 starting quality free agent outfielders next year. Each has a different combination of skills, and each has their own contract expectations.

    Of those, several would not be a match because they do not have the skill combinations the Mets are looking for (X amount of power or Y amount of speed, etc.). Of the remaining FA outfielders, several MORE would not be a match because even though they have the skills we're looking for, we do not feel like they provide a worthwhile value relative to other targets.

    So we go into the off-season with, perhaps, 1 guy as a primary target for the OF. And even then, maybe another team beats us to the punch. So we go with our backup plan, and we do get him, but we're not satisfied with the value he provides compared to the primary target.

    Result is that it still leaves us with 2 more holes in the outfield... and yet another wasted season. But if we had gotten 1 piece the year before, and added this 1 new piece, we're moving in the right direction.

    Basically Sandy is walking into this season without filling even 1 of the 3 holes in the outfield, and that is going to back him into a corner when it comes to future FA targets. At least if we got 1 guy on board for a multi-year contract, then we could add to that in 2014. But we're just passing the buck further down the road.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,009
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    Basically Sandy is walking into this season without filling even 1 of the 3 holes in the outfield, and that is going to back him into a corner when it comes to future FA targets. At least if we got 1 guy on board for a multi-year contract, then we could add to that in 2014. But we're just passing the buck further down the road.
    Which OFer should we have signed this yr and for how much? I thought Swisher on a 3 or 4 yr deal would be nice but he got a pretty big contract. Almost as much per yr as Wright will get over the next 8 yrs.... no way we'd spend that much on someone like Swish.
    Last edited by bklynny67; 12-25-2012 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    15,540
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bklynny67 View Post
    Which OFer should we have signed this yr and for how much? I thought Swisher on a 3 or 4 yr deal would be nice but he got a pretty big contract. Almost as much per yr as Wright will get over the next 8 yrs.... no way we'd spend that much on someone like Swish.
    The issue to me is credibility.

    Just to make a comparison for a moment.

    A few years back, the Knicks started jettisoning payroll. It was painful, obviously, because the team was rebuilding. Rebuilding is always painful.

    People did question ownership's decision making, and for good reason. But one thing you never questioned about the Knicks was whether or not Dolan would shell out to build a contender.

    Due to the Wilpons financial struggles, this becomes a question. If we all knew that they had the resources, then this wouldn't be cause for discussion. But we do not know if they have the resources. We don't.

    Yet they say there is "payroll flexibility" this year.

    I have said the words "Scott Hairston" more times in the past month than I ever care to for the rest of my life. I have no doubt that my focus on this guy must seem rather weird. Bear with me as we add up all the following:

    Scott Hairston, though not impressive, is an extremely affordable option that fits numerous needs the Mets have (They need 3 outfielders, he's an outfielder. They need righties, he's one. They need a little power, he's got some.) Now if people are wondering whether you have the resources to build this team, and if you claim that you have payroll flexibility, and if there's a guy out there that's immensely affordable and can fill all of these holes and you STILL don't sign him... what does that look like to you? To me, it sure looks like a lie.
    Last edited by StoicSentry; 12-25-2012 at 12:37 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Hill Valley, 1985.
    Posts
    7,792
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    The issue to me is credibility.

    Just to make a comparison for a moment.

    A few years back, the Knicks started jettisoning payroll. It was painful, obviously, because the team was rebuilding. Rebuilding is always painful.

    People did question ownership's decision making, and for good reason. But one thing you never questioned about the Knicks was whether or not Dolan would shell out to build a contender.

    Due to the Wilpons financial struggles, this becomes a question. If we all knew that they had the resources, then this wouldn't be cause for discussion. But we do not know if they have the resources. We don't.

    Yet they say there is "payroll flexibility" this year.

    I have said the words "Scott Hairston" more times in the past month than I ever care to for the rest of my life. I have no doubt that my focus on this guy must seem rather weird. Bear with me as we add up all the following:

    Scott Hairston, though not impressive, is an extremely affordable option that fits numerous needs the Mets have (They need 3 outfielders, he's an outfielder. They need righties, he's one. They need a little power, he's got some.) Now if people are wondering whether you have the resources to build this team, and if you claim that you have payroll flexibility, and if there's a guy out there that's immensely affordable and can fill all of these holes and you STILL don't sign him... what does that look like to you? To me, it sure looks like a lie.




    They have been lying to us about money since 2008, why would they stop now?

    This 'flexibility' nonsense is garbage, what have they actually done? It's just a PR line dude, it has been since the Coupons took over. Every year 'we got flex for the deadline' after they've failed to anything over the Winter, then we get to the deadline and they do nothing again.

    People actually believe that as soon as calendar turns to Oct 2013, that then Coupons magically change their spots and start spending again.

    Ok.

    If they have flex, why aren't they bringing back Hairston ?

    Makes no sense. I think fans actually believe that money not spent now, will be saved and spent next year, I really do. Like they'll put money aside and spend it next year...like a fan would do, if running the team. But the Coupons aren't fans!!!
    Last edited by Marty Mcfly; 12-25-2012 at 08:52 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,046
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    You and I are on the same page Stoic.

    Here's the thing: I completely understand them not spending money to become a better mediocre team this year. I get that. They have too many holes now to worry about spending for the present.

    The question of course is whether they will be buyers if and when the time comes that it is strategically beneficial to do so.

    I have my doubts.
    I'll wait until after this season to see if they're serious about spending money or not. It is the right thing to do to not overpay for a few meaningless wins in 2013, because 2013 is going to be a 4th place year no matter what. Besides, a bad 2013 = a higher draft pick. It's really about 2015 and beyond. Patience!!!!!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Hill Valley, 1985.
    Posts
    7,792
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg42 View Post
    I'll wait until after this season to see if they're serious about spending money or not. It is the right thing to do to not overpay for a few meaningless wins in 2013, because 2013 is going to be a 4th place year no matter what. Besides, a bad 2013 = a higher draft pick. It's really about 2015 and beyond. Patience!!!!!
    Now it's 2015 and beyond?

    LOL!!!

    What's next?

    'Wait until 2017 then we'll show 'em'.?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    10,400
    vCash
    1500
    Has anyone on the Mets management "officially" said that there will be $$$$ to spend in 2014 or is this a fan assumption that the $$$$ available after Santana and Bay will be spent on a superstar OFer.

    I think that the Mets are run to make $$$$ and not necessarily to win championships and that the two are mutually exclusive. It isn't that they do not want to win, it's that they do not want to spend outlandish amounts to do so.

    A lot of fans seem to think that had Josh Hamilton been available next year, that the Mets would be in the thick of it in trying to sign him. I'm not so sure. I think the $$$$ is getting to regions that the Wilnotpons are not willing to travel to. These "2nd generation contracts" are getting into the stratosphere. If the Angels don't win with Pujols and Hamilton, it will be awfully easy to point out how these big signings guarantee nothing.

    It would not surprise me to see the Mets make minor signings next year but not the superstars. They are probably already drawing up the script of how to spint it for offseason 2013-14.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    East of the Sun, West of the Moon
    Posts
    16,919
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by jomota48 View Post
    Has anyone on the Mets management "officially" said that there will be $$$$ to spend in 2014 or is this a fan assumption that the $$$$ available after Santana and Bay will be spent on a superstar OFer.

    A lot of fans seem to think that had Josh Hamilton been available next year, that the Mets would be in the thick of it in trying to sign him. I'm not so sure. I think the $$$$ is getting to regions that the Wilnotpons are not willing to travel to. .

    It's Alderson's call
    .

    Obviously, ownership is involved in all major signings requiring mega-years and dollars. It's probably like that for every team. When has ownership ever told a GM, "no." They certainly have set some parameters here and there, but if the cash flow is decent and the return on the investment is sound -- based on the GM's recommendation -- I think ownership will make an honest effort. Obviously, that's speculation, but I see no reason to think otherwise.
    Last edited by Dugmet; 12-24-2012 at 06:59 PM.
    John Maeda@johnmaeda

    Knowing the overall *shape* of an idea, argument, situation requires as many facts, models, opinions as you can take/make to see a whole.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    15,540
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by NY_Heartbreakk
    Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, Atlanta Braves. These teams build from within and have smart drafts. They don't all spend like the Yankees. Hell, not even the Yankees spent like the Yankees until relatively recently.
    Tampa Bay? TAMPA BAY?

    1st, we're in NY. There should be money available. I'm not asking for Yankees money or Red Sox money or Phillies money.

    But there is a HUGE difference between being the Yankees, handing out huge contracts to guys like A Rod that become big wastes... and being a small market team in a constant state of rebuilding.

    If you have no hope then all I can say is to stop following the team. What else are you looking for? If being a Mets fan brings your life so much misery, just stop. If you look at things objectively, we're better off now than in 2008-2011. Were you all complaining this much back then?

    Just relax and watch baseball. Christ.
    1. I don't have no hope. I do have hope. I just happen to have questions, too, and don't like the feeling of being jerked around by this front office. I have hope because I see that we are adding solid young pieces to build around. I have questions because I wonder whether the FO is willing to help those young pieces out with quality FA signings. Honestly, at this point, what Mets fan DOESN'T have the questions that I have?

    2. Being a Mets fan doesn't bring my life "such misery." I enjoy being a Mets fan, as masochistic as that sounds. I wish the Mets were on right now.

    3. We are *NOT* more competitive than we were in 2008-2011. We are much LESS competitive. Now we ARE better off than we were in 2008-2011 if you take the long-term perspective. But that future that we're building? It's all for nothing if we don't spend at some point.

    Was I complaining that much back then? I didn't complain too much then.

    Heck, I don't feel like I'm complaining right now. I think "expressing concern" or "being skeptical/curious" would be a more fitting phrase.

    I have generally been very optimistic about the organization. You can ask some of the bigger doubters... such as Coupon or Marty McFly. Up until recently, I had not voiced much doubt at all.

    For that matter, I was very pleased with the R.A. Dickey trade, and as much as I hated seeing him leave, I understood it completely.

    What made me so negative all the sudden? The major thing was listening to Sandy and Jeff tell me that we have a good degree of "payroll flexibility" this off-season and then... they did nothing with that supposed flexibility. Like, that's not even an exaggeration. They did precisely nothing. They are the only team that hasn't signed a single free agent. Not one! At what point is it fair to ask ourselves whether we are being lied to?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    6,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    Tampa Bay? TAMPA BAY?

    1st, we're in NY. There should be money available. I'm not asking for Yankees money or Red Sox money or Phillies money.

    But there is a HUGE difference between being the Yankees, handing out huge contracts to guys like A Rod that become big wastes... and being a small market team in a constant state of rebuilding.



    1. I don't have no hope. I do have hope. I just happen to have questions, too, and don't like the feeling of being jerked around by this front office. I have hope because I see that we are adding solid young pieces to build around. I have questions because I wonder whether the FO is willing to help those young pieces out with quality FA signings. Honestly, at this point, what Mets fan DOESN'T have the questions that I have?

    2. Being a Mets fan doesn't bring my life "such misery." I enjoy being a Mets fan, as masochistic as that sounds. I wish the Mets were on right now.

    3. We are *NOT* more competitive than we were in 2008-2011. We are much LESS competitive. Now we ARE better off than we were in 2008-2011 if you take the long-term perspective. But that future that we're building? It's all for nothing if we don't spend at some point.

    Was I complaining that much back then? I didn't complain too much then.

    Heck, I don't feel like I'm complaining right now. I think "expressing concern" or "being skeptical/curious" would be a more fitting phrase.

    I have generally been very optimistic about the organization. You can ask some of the bigger doubters... such as Coupon or Marty McFly. Up until recently, I had not voiced much doubt at all.

    For that matter, I was very pleased with the R.A. Dickey trade, and as much as I hated seeing him leave, I understood it completely.

    What made me so negative all the sudden? The major thing was listening to Sandy and Jeff tell me that we have a good degree of "payroll flexibility" this off-season and then... they did nothing with that supposed flexibility. Like, that's not even an exaggeration. They did precisely nothing. They are the only team that hasn't signed a single free agent. Not one! At what point is it fair to ask ourselves whether we are being lied to?
    I wasn't speaking directly to you, which is why I didn't quote you. I'm speaking to the general dismay of Mets fans, and if you want to get specific, posters like Coupon and McFly.

    I don't mind negativity. Negativity must exist for there to be positivity. But many posters on this forum do nothing but complain about affairs they have no control over, but more importantly, they complain about things which none but the Wilpons know.

    For that matter, what Coupon and McFly say may very well be true. The Wilpons may be "robbing the Mets blind". But really, who cares? I'm going to avoid the "what can we do about it?" argument, valid as it is. Instead, I would love to address the problem of perspective in this forum.

    It's one thing to be upset because your team lost, another to be upset because your team sucks, but something completely different to be upset because you think there is no hope for your team and ownership is absorbing all the benevolence of its team's fanbase. Enough already.

    If you hate the Wilpons and Sandy so damned much, just follow another team. You're not legally bound to be a Mets fan. Just move on then. For many of you, this is worse than watching a deteriorating marriage.

    Finally, let me qualify this rant by saying I do not disagree with anyone, including McFly and Coupon. You're all entitled to your opinions, and you often bring in quality points. However, I think we can all agree that this is now going beyond the baseball team and is delving into personal desires to rant and complain to parties who you know will push back.

    Let's all just relax and enjoy the game of baseball. Take a deep breath and find some perspective in your lives.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    6,922
    vCash
    1500
    Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, Atlanta Braves. These teams build from within and have smart drafts. They don't all spend like the Yankees. Hell, not even the Yankees spent like the Yankees until relatively recently.

    If you have no hope then all I can say is to stop following the team. What else are you looking for? If being a Mets fan brings your life so much misery, just stop. If you look at things objectively, we're better off now than in 2008-2011. Were you all complaining this much back then?

    Just relax and watch baseball. Christ.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    10,400
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by NY_Heartbreak View Post
    Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers, Atlanta Braves. These teams build from within and have smart drafts. They don't all spend like the Yankees. Hell, not even the Yankees spent like the Yankees until relatively recently.

    If you have no hope then all I can say is to stop following the team. What else are you looking for? If being a Mets fan brings your life so much misery, just stop. If you look at things objectively, we're better off now than in 2008-2011. Were you all complaining this much back then?

    Just relax and watch baseball. Christ.
    I know first hand that the Tampa Bay Rays have always been up front about how they run their franchise. They are clear that they cannot afford and will not pursue high priced free agents. They will draft smartly, move their guys up and trade them when they approach expensive contracts.

    I cannot speak for the other teams you mention.

    What frustrates Mets' fans is that they feel that they are being misled and lied to by the front office. They lead us to believe that when the time is right, they will sign FAs to improve the team.

    Many of us are not so sure about that.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •