Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





View Poll Results: Is Andruw Jones a HOFer?

Voters
133. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    24 18.05%
  • No

    109 81.95%
Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 112
  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,268
    vCash
    1500
    I think if he would have keep it up for a couple more years I would say yes but he's been really bad after 30 years old. To me a hall of famer should be at the top of the game longer. He did start early but to me a truly great owns the game and he fell apart for no reason. To me he wasn't a disciple of the game, just a truely gifted athlete.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    37,433
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by yankees90. View Post
    When this subject, for any player, comes up what is it that we usually talk about? Has the player ever dominated at any point in his career and for how long? We usually throw out the stats, decide for ourselves and come up with a conclusion....

    Well, for about ten years, Andruw Jones was the best CF in the game. He played phenomenal defense and was a force in that Braves lineup. His career numbers can be looked at as HOF numbers. He is 100% a HOF'er in my eyes. It sucks to see whats happened to him now, he playing in Japan. If he was able to continue that production for about 4 more years, you could have possibly been talking Top 5 CF all-time (yeah I went there)

    It is sad this is even a question....if this was Trout in Jones' place, most of you would blow a gasket that this question was even brought up.
    The problem is, is that when Jones stopped performing at an elite level, he completely slid. He went from elite ball player, to replacement level ball player.

    By most hall of fame standards, he wasn't elite quite long enough. One decade is technically all it takes, but when you compare him to the rest of the hall of fame centerfielders, he is pretty short of them.

    By rWAR
    Jones - 59.5
    Average hall of famer - 65.0
    Hall of fame Centerfielders ahead of him (had to play center more than any other position:
    Willie Mays - 150.8
    Ty Cobb - 144.9
    Tris Speaker - 127.8
    Mickey Mantle - 105.5
    Joe DiMaggio - 75.1
    Simmons - 64.3
    Duke Snider - 63.1
    Reggie Smith - 60.8
    Richie Ashburn - 60.2

    Griffey is heading there - 79.2 and will be in before Jones is up for election

    And then you have guys that arguably deserve to be in before Jones
    Jim Edmonds - 57.3
    Kenny Lofton - 64.9
    Carlos Beltran - 62.3



    And then there are some guys that played a lot of center, but managed to play elsewhere a little more like Robin Yount, Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Andre Dawson


    He just didn't do it quite long enough to be in the same group. Now I realize that I am only showing WAR, but WAR really likes Jones because of his defense. Offensively, he is behind most of these players. As well, longevity.

    If Andruw Jones is a hall of famer, than so should Kenny Lofton and a number of other guys.

    I don't think he'll get in. People will remember his crash. Not his peak.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    17,302
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Will4Prez View Post
    Just based on his offense, no. But the dude was probably the best outfielder defensively in the league for ~10 straight years. I'd say that warrants a HOF nod.
    This and the fact that he managed to put up over 90% of a HOFer's value in 10 years is about as strong as his case gets. A HOFer to me should have some kind of trait that puts them in the annals of history in a positive way, and I would say "top 2-3 defensive OFer of all time in his prime" is a good one to have.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    37,433
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    This and the fact that he managed to put up over 90% of a HOFer's value in 10 years is about as strong as his case gets. A HOFer to me should have some kind of trait that puts them in the annals of history in a positive way, and I would say "top 2-3 defensive OFer of all time in his prime" is a good one to have.
    Certainly.

    But when a player has no longevity, his prime has to be elite, as in, best player to play during that prime (again, if it's short).

    It's subjective, so it's up to the voters discretion. But his overall accumulation falls a little short when compared to other hall of famers from the same position.


    Not that they compare, but Mark Belanger is probably the best defensive shortstop of all time and he played for over a decade. But his bat was so far away that he is obviously not a hall of famer.

    I personally feel like if you are going to be a hall of famer from just 10 years of work, you need to be the absolutely best player in the game in that time period, and produce a 65+ish WAR (again, subjective really). I believe Jones is just short of that. But then again, if someone like Pujols retired after 2010, he would still be a hall of famer to me.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    17,302
    vCash
    1500
    But when a player has no longevity, his prime has to be elite, as in, best player to play during that prime (again, if it's short).
    A decade isn't all that short of a time, nor was he not an elite player during that time.

    Just going to point out that according to this criteria Kirby Puckett isn't a HOFer.

    Why bring up Belanger to not compare them? Why introduce random criteria? Is 5 WAR really something to quibble over anyway?

    I would like to point out that I lean no, but given that he's one of history's elite defenders (at any position) who averaged an .850 OPS and 35 HRs in his prime it is one of the more controversial nos to hand out.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    san josYAY
    Posts
    10,526
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Sorry dude. It's a fine question.

    He's borderline on the numbers, in on the "10 year peak thing", but when they took the juice away from him he died. A total of 1.1 rWAR his last 5 years starting at age 31? That's crap and it throws red flags all over the place.

    If he was in this years class I wouldn't even think about him twice this year - no. In a weak year, maybe.
    i didn't know he did steroids? could you provide a link?

    who cares if he became a 4th OF at 31, it shouldn't hold any barring, if thats the case then lets take out Jimmy Foxx and Sandy Koufax

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    37,433
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban View Post
    i didn't know he did steroids? could you provide a link?

    who cares if he became a 4th OF at 31, it shouldn't hold any barring, if thats the case then lets take out Jimmy Foxx and Sandy Koufax
    Koufax was on all kinds of drugs, and he simply retired. He didn't decline, he quit.


    It's a red flag, but it also doesn't mean he in fact did do anything.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    san josYAY
    Posts
    10,526
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Certainly.

    But when a player has no longevity, his prime has to be elite, as in, best player to play during that prime (again, if it's short).

    It's subjective, so it's up to the voters discretion. But his overall accumulation falls a little short when compared to other hall of famers from the same position.


    Not that they compare, but Mark Belanger is probably the best defensive shortstop of all time and he played for over a decade. But his bat was so far away that he is obviously not a hall of famer.

    I personally feel like if you are going to be a hall of famer from just 10 years of work, you need to be the absolutely best player in the game in that time period, and produce a 65+ish WAR (again, subjective really). I believe Jones is just short of that. But then again, if someone like Pujols retired after 2010, he would still be a hall of famer to me.
    So then no Jimmy Foxx? because he was out of baseball by about 33, and he wasn't the best player of his era either,

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    san josYAY
    Posts
    10,526
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Koufax was on all kinds of drugs, and he simply retired. He didn't decline, he quit.


    It's a red flag, but it also doesn't mean he in fact did do anything.
    he may have been smoking the reefer, but i believe his elbow blew out and he needed tommy john, but Dr. Frank Jobe was being a lazy *** and didn't invent it for another 10 years,but i don't remember exactly.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,969
    vCash
    1500
    In a simple word, yes, yes he is.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    37,433
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by ciaban View Post
    So then no Jimmy Foxx? because he was out of baseball by about 33, and he wasn't the best player of his era either,
    Jimmie Foxx had 500 home runs at the age of 32 and has over 90 rWAR. He is one of the single greatest players of all time.

    As I said in that very post, if a player has an Albert Pujols type of prime (it's funny because Pujols is Foxx's closest comp), then his decade can make him a hall of famer. Andruw Jones had some flaws, even in his prime.

    He was also the best player in baseball from 1929-1939, and the only other player even close to him was Lou Gehrig with Mel Ott a distant 3rd.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 12-25-2012 at 01:35 AM.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Silverdale, Wa
    Posts
    8,449
    vCash
    1500
    It's amazing what Koufax accomplished in such a short time.
    Quote Originally Posted by nessythegreat View Post
    This is getting old. Enough is enough. Redskin Is not offensive and it will never change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    I want to start a website where people who say this video tape themselves going up to Native Americans and go "hey what's up redskin?" and then upload what happens.

    I'll call it WhatsUpRedskin.com



    You want to go first?
    I fully support this future site.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    17,302
    vCash
    1500
    Koufax didn't quit. Koufax was forced out of baseball by an arm that required hours of pre and post game care in an era where a bucket of ice and some morphine was the cure for all athlete ailments.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    37,433
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Koufax didn't quit. Koufax was forced out of baseball by an arm that required hours of pre and post game care in an era where a bucket of ice and some morphine was the cure for all athlete ailments.
    He retired 'due to arthritis'. He didn't want his body to get worse as an old man.

    He could have still pitched if he really wanted to (most likely)

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2,703
    vCash
    1500
    One of the biggest things that must be considered when comparing numbers, is the era they played in. The early 90's to the mid 2000's are all a joke. Just about everybody was on something or another. There's gonna be a huge drop off of guys from that span getting in.

    Try playing against the same 7 teams all year. With pitchers that actually belong in the bigs, instead of bums that would be in the minors if not for expansion, coupled with going to a 5 man rotation. Huge difference!! So one league goes from the range of 24-32 starters to what we now have with 75 starters in each league. Which pitchers are better? Even a 5 year old can figure that one out.
    Last edited by thawv; 12-25-2012 at 10:49 AM.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •