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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModernDaySavage View Post
    Wow I really can't believe how many people are getting *** hurt over Wade's career PER. It just shows how dumb some people can be. Did you not think about how Wade is still in his prime years? Of course his career PER is going to be a little higher, the retired greats have already went through their late age declines (which obviously lowers the career average). Once Wade plays through his 30's it will lower a bit. Just think about **** before hating blindy, it makes you look dumb.
    lol. So than by comparison you're saying that every player on that list played through their 30's?

    Magic played through his 30's??? News to me.

    Oh and using personal insults and saying that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means their dumb is not the best way to be taken seriously. Irony at it's finest. Why don't you try calming down next time and try attacking the point I make rather than me personally. Honestly, it sounds like I touched a nerve or something. Perhaps there is some truth to what I am saying after all.
    Last edited by amos1er; 12-24-2012 at 06:16 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Ughhh. Wade wasn't the only example...there were many more inconsistencies that I pointed out.

    NBA/ABA
    Rank Player PER
    1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
    2. LeBron James 27.29
    3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
    4. David Robinson* 26.18
    5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
    6. Dwyane Wade 25.62
    7. Chris Paul 25.47
    8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
    9. Tim Duncan 24.76
    10. Neil Johnston* 24.69
    11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
    12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
    13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
    14. Karl Malone* 23.90
    15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.63
    16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
    17. Julius Erving* 23.58
    18. Larry Bird* 23.50
    19. Kobe Bryant 23.48
    20. Kevin Garnett 23.25

    Well, according to that list...

    David Robinson > Magic

    Barkley > Kareem

    Wade > Duncan

    Malone > Hakeem

    Dirk > Bird

    Lebron > Duncan

    Barkley > Hakeem

    Barkley > Magic

    Wade > Bird


    How many more inconsistencies do you want me to find?
    It just means those players have better pers. I think this is something the Saber Nerds can't wrap there heads around with these special stats they come up with.

    There is more to basketball than how many bases you get and out many outs you use. Per, efficiency, ratings, ect, are just stats. No one stat tells you who the best player(s) is/were.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakers+Giants View Post
    Sorry.
    No biggie.

    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    This coming from a guy who had a Kobe is a Rapist signature.
    Point?


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Well, according to that list...

    David Robinson > Magic

    Barkley > Kareem

    Wade > Duncan

    Malone > Hakeem

    Dirk > Bird

    Lebron > Duncan

    Barkley > Hakeem

    Barkley > Magic

    Wade > Bird


    How many more inconsistencies do you want me to find?

    Any list that has Lebron near the top is a good list to them.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by knicksfan42 View Post
    Not PER, NBA's website uses a stat they call efficiency.
    You are aware that the "E" in PER stands for effciency, right?
    PER = Player Efficiency Ranking.
    What the eye doesn't see and the mind doesn't know, doesn't exist.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    You are aware that the "E" in PER stands for effciency, right?
    PER = Player Efficiency Ranking.
    I understand, but they have a different formula. That is the reason the numbers are different. They have a stat called win shares and another called EWS (estimated wins added).

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    lol. So than by comparison you're saying that every player on that list played through their 30's?

    Magic played through his 30's??? News to me.

    Oh and using personal insults and saying that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means their dumb is not the best way to be taken seriously. Irony at it's finest. Why don't you try calming down next time and try attacking the point I make rather than me personally. Honestly, it sounds like I touched a nerve or something. Perhaps there is some truth to what I am saying after all.
    Don't worry guy you proved your point... People arguing at this point are just being ignorant so they can tell people the star on there team is the greater than people like Kareem Abdul Jabar the leading scorer of all time in NBA history (those are solid stats not a formula like PER).

    Chill guy you proved your point without a doubt let them open there presents on Christmas morning and tell there family the great tale of D-Wade the man who is 6 spots higher all time than the NBA's leading scorer ever, blocks ever and has won more championships than Wade

    When Kareem Abdul-Jabbar left the game in 1989 at age 42, no NBA player had ever scored more points, blocked more shots, won more Most Valuable Player Awards, played in more All-Star Games or logged more seasons. His list of personal and team accomplishments is perhaps the most awesome in league history: Rookie of the Year, member of six NBA championship teams, six-time NBA MVP, two-time NBA Finals MVP, 19-time All-Star, two-time scoring champion, and a member of the NBA 35th and 50th Anniversary All-Time Teams. He also owned eight playoff records and seven All-Star records. No player achieved as much individual and team success as did Abdul-Jabbar.
    Here's a quote for some of you Miami homers out there also Enjoy!



    Miami Heat Coach Pat Riley, who coached Abdul-Jabbar for eight seasons in Los Angeles, once said in a toast recounted in Sports Illustrated, "Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever."
    If Pat had to say that speech in this day and time he'd immediately change his tune to Jordan but I'm sure the point is made.

    After seeing all these rankings this confirms it to me that PER is useless and looking further this MATHEMATICAL FORMULA was created by Hollinger an ESPN writer who tried to make a new all in one stat (I think he needs to work a little harder).

    USELESS!!!
    Last edited by ghettosean; 12-24-2012 at 10:51 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by knicksfan42 View Post
    ...For me a large part of it is that they were rivals. LeBron vs Wade was a great rivalry and for them to team up just doesn't sit right with me. It would've been cool if LeBron had gone to the Bulls.....
    and Bosh to the Heat to join Wade. That would've been awesome... I would've respected LeBron way more if he went there.
    Why have great rivals when you can join them and have none.... Lebron James where losing the spirit of competition happens!

  8. #53
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    You guys know that PER is readjusted every year so that 15 is the league average every single year, right?

    So career PERs are completely useless because a 20 back then isn't a 20 now? Because of the re-scaling?

    You guys wouldn't just be criticising a stat you know nothing about, would you?




    Also, PER mainly measures offensive performance, so solely great defenders won't have high PERs .
    Last edited by xnick5757; 12-24-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnick5757 View Post
    You guys know that PER is readjusted every year so that 15 is the league average every single year, right?

    So career PERs are completely useless because a 20 back then isn't a 20 now? Because of the re-scaling?

    You guys wouldn't just be criticising a stat you know nothing about, would you?




    Also, PER mainly measures offensive performance, so solely great defenders won't have high PERs .
    Im gonna make up stupid *** stat that changes every year.. lmfao. What a joke that some of you people have ruined your basketball watching lives living and dying by these advanced stats.

  10. #55
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    OK OK all you "per" heads. I'll admit it, I was wrong. After shooting us Melo homers down time after time about his Per, I think it's time we Knick fans say that the "Per" thing is great. I mean I watch 15 games a week and I didn't know that Jimmer Fredette was better than Kyrie Irving and Rondo. Thanks " Per". And the Nets Fans BEEN telling me that Brooke Lopez was better than Dwight Howard but I'm mad that no Hornets fans told me that ROBIN LOPEZ was better too. I'm mad at y'all, I had no clue. I'm now a 100% "Perv"


    PS...... I'm going to name my next child( god willing) Win Shares!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by elledaddy; 12-24-2012 at 11:57 AM.

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Ughhh. Wade wasn't the only example...there were many more inconsistencies that I pointed out.

    NBA/ABA
    Rank Player PER
    1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
    2. LeBron James 27.29
    3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
    4. David Robinson* 26.18
    5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
    6. Dwyane Wade 25.62
    7. Chris Paul 25.47
    8. Bob Pettit* 25.35
    9. Tim Duncan 24.76
    10. Neil Johnston* 24.69
    11. Charles Barkley* 24.63
    12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
    13. Magic Johnson* 24.11
    14. Karl Malone* 23.90
    15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.63
    16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
    17. Julius Erving* 23.58
    18. Larry Bird* 23.50
    19. Kobe Bryant 23.48
    20. Kevin Garnett 23.25

    Well, according to that list...

    David Robinson > Magic

    Barkley > Kareem

    Wade > Duncan

    Malone > Hakeem

    Dirk > Bird

    Lebron > Duncan

    Barkley > Hakeem

    Barkley > Magic

    Wade > Bird


    How many more inconsistencies do you want me to find?
    I mean really? Look at just a couple of the differences.... Barkley is a .05 rating higher than Kareem, Dirk is a .13 higher than Bird. Nobody is claiming it's an absolute say all end all stat, so to just say the rankings are set in stone with such minuscule differences is pretty dumb.... And stop nit picking, of course Magic didn't play through his entire thirties...How many others didn't as well?

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    lol. So than by comparison you're saying that every player on that list played through their 30's?

    Magic played through his 30's??? News to me.

    Oh and using personal insults and saying that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means their dumb is not the best way to be taken seriously. Irony at it's finest. Why don't you try calming down next time and try attacking the point I make rather than me personally. Honestly, it sounds like I touched a nerve or something. Perhaps there is some truth to what I am saying after all.
    It has nothing to do with agreeing or not, and I really didn't attack anyone. Just saying it shows how dumb some people can be (potential) by looking past simple things like that. I honestly don't care about Wade or his PER I'm not a fan or anything. So sorry if you see one cuss word or hear someones intelligence being insulted that it translates directly into anger. It's more or less I'm mind boggled by some people who just take things for their argument and ignore the rest. Sorry if you felt directly insulted (guilty conscience?), but it was definitely made as a general statement and not towards anyone specific.

    Now for the PER. Of course it has its flaws, that's why you cant just take numbers and treat them like concrete facts. Example being Barkley .05 rating above Kareem, of course I don't believe Barkley is better. Everything has to be put into to context with other stats, era, and all that good stuff.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettosean View Post
    Don't worry guy you proved your point... People arguing at this point are just being ignorant so they can tell people the star on there team is the greater than people like Kareem Abdul Jabar the leading scorer of all time in NBA history (those are solid stats not a formula like PER).

    Chill guy you proved your point without a doubt let them open there presents on Christmas morning and tell there family the great tale of D-Wade the man who is 6 spots higher all time than the NBA's leading scorer ever, blocks ever and has won more championships than Wade



    Here's a quote for some of you Miami homers out there also Enjoy!



    If Pat had to say that speech in this day and time he'd immediately change his tune to Jordan but I'm sure the point is made.

    After seeing all these rankings this confirms it to me that PER is useless and looking further this MATHEMATICAL FORMULA was created by Hollinger an ESPN writer who tried to make a new all in one stat (I think he needs to work a little harder).

    USELESS!!!
    Hey guy. Have you thought about the part where Wade is thirty and in his prime, and Kareem played until he is 42? It boggles my mind how this gets overlooked. Of course Wade's career PER is going to be higher. I will guarantee that if Wade played until 42, Kareem's PER would blow his out. So stop putting all this weight on counting stats like rings, career points, and total blocks (at the time he retired). Of course when a guy played twenty years compared to nine or ten years it's going to make the other dude look like a child in comparison. Hopefully you can understand this sir.

  14. #59
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    This PER list also accurately displays (indirectly) just how much of an inefficient chucker Kobe Bryant really is.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ModernDaySavage View Post
    Hey guy. Have you thought about the part where Wade is thirty and in his prime, and Kareem played until he is 42? It boggles my mind how this gets overlooked. Of course Wade's career PER is going to be higher. I will guarantee that if Wade played until 42, Kareem's PER would blow his out. So stop putting all this weight on counting stats like rings, career points, and total blocks (at the time he retired). Of course when a guy played twenty years compared to nine or ten years it's going to make the other dude look like a child in comparison. Hopefully you can understand this sir.
    Sorry did you mean NBA all time records as in the best in history of the game of basketball is that what you meant

    You only prove the point that PER is a useless stat if Wade retired today he would be more effecient than Kareem in his career.


    Problems With PER

    PER largely measures offensive performance. Hollinger freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporates -- blocks and steals -- can produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. For example, Bruce Bowen, widely regarded as one of the best defenders in the NBA (at least through the 2006-07 season), has routinely posted single-digit PERs.
    "Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals."

    In addition, some have argued that PER gives undue weight to a player's contribution in limited minutes, or against a team's second unit, and it undervalues players who have enough diversity in their game to play starter's minutes.

    Lastly, PER rewards inefficient shooting. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

    "Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

    Problems with PER Projections

    The projections are built by looking at comparable players at the same age and how their stats changed in the following season. For players in most age brackets, this is extremely reliable, but there have been so few players to turn pro out of high school in the past two decades that there is a very small sample to work with. While some players who have come out of high school have shown a lot of promise in their future years, many have floundered and never quite reached their full potential.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating

    Are you embarassed enough yet young one... LOL. Seriously the creator of PER admits that it's not accurate to many degrees. What makes you know more than him?!? Seriously tell me I can't wait to here your D-Wade fantasies some more...

    Stop this you are not making yourself look any better.


    Quote Originally Posted by knicksfan42 View Post
    ...For me a large part of it is that they were rivals. LeBron vs Wade was a great rivalry and for them to team up just doesn't sit right with me. It would've been cool if LeBron had gone to the Bulls.....
    and Bosh to the Heat to join Wade. That would've been awesome... I would've respected LeBron way more if he went there.
    Why have great rivals when you can join them and have none.... Lebron James where losing the spirit of competition happens!

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