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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Dickey wasn't an expensive piece? Who on the Mets not named David Wright is making more than $12 million a year? No, he wasn't an expensive piece in 2013 but he would have been in 2014.

    I'm seeing a pattern right now. With the exception of David Wright, every player who has excelled for this team has been let go. Everyone in here is assuming there's a rhyme to this reason and maybe there is.

    I'm just saying let's see how things develop before assuming the Wilpons with Alderson are going to build a team from bottom to top. To Sandy's credit, he's building a nice foundation. Now let's see what happens when it's time to add an expensive cherry on top of the ice cream sundae.
    Firstly, he said "expensive pieces". Plural . . multiple. . . making it sound like the Mets have habitually sold off their elite players. Secondly, I think you know, just as well as I do, that the Dickey trade was not about money. They did not trade R.A. to get rid of an "expensive piece". It was all about improving the team. I am absolutely certain that, if Sandy did not get top value for Dickey, he would have gladly signed him to an extension that both team and player were very happy with.

    Now to your point. At my age, my memory may not be as good as yours. So tell me about the pattern. What really good players, not named Jose, have the Mets developed and then let go? Heath Bell? Mike Jacobs? Or are you going back to Straw, . . . Doc, . . . the Franchise?
    Last edited by dunbummin; 12-23-2012 at 10:00 PM.
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

  2. #32
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    The contracts being tossed around the last few years make me wonder if some sort of adjustment might not happen pretty soon in how owners and GMs look at some of these FAs.

    Mike Piazza wanted to be the first $10 million man. Eventually every starter on the Stinkees made that and more. Now $20 million a year contracts are fairly common and guys like Pujols and Arod will make $30 million by the end of their deals. Do the top FAs now start at $30 per. Neither the Angels or Stinkees won it last year so it didn't work out all that well for them.

    Suppose you can win it all by giving someone $25 million a year, but show a greater profit by not signing the guy at all and coming in 2nd or 3rd. What should the Wilnotpons do???? It's like a business buying a new, sexy piece of equipment but not covering its cost through increased sales. Tough call.

    These FA signings are getting a little silly and awfully tough, if not impossible, to judge.$56 million for Swisher, $30 million for Pagan. Glad it's not my $$$$. Maybe what the Rays do is the answer. Sign your best players to an extension when they are young/cheap and keep turing over your roster.

    I can't help but feeling a salary adjustment is coming…along with the obligatory collusion lawsuit from the players. Something has to give.

  3. #33
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    Lets go Jays!
    This is just the beginning. Let's keep it up. History is bound to repeat itself. Let's hope that this time it's for the best.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    Damn the Wilpons for making this necessary...
    Oh B.S.. 90% of Mets fans were demanding that Sandy trade Dickey at peak value.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbummin View Post
    Firstly, he said "expensive pieces". Plural . . multiple. . . making it sound like the Mets have habitually sold off their elite players. Secondly, I think you know, just as well as I do, that the Dickey trade was not about money. They did not trade R.A. to get rid of an "expensive piece". It was all about improving the team. I am absolutely certain that, if Sandy did not get top value for Dickey, he would have gladly signed him to an extension that both team and player were very happy with.

    Now to your point. At my age, my memory may not be as good as yours. So tell me about the pattern. What really good players, not named Jose, have the Mets developed and then let go? Heath Bell? Mike Jacobs? Or are you going back to Straw, . . . Doc, . . . the Franchise?
    Why are you assuming trading RA wasn't about the money they would have had to pay him 12 mill plus in 2014 or risk losing him for nothing? Sandy got a nice deal for him, sure. But how do you know the impetus wasnt to proactively avoid paying a high salaried player?

    Sandy has been GM for two seasons. After his first season, he jettisoned Reyes. I'm sick of everyone telling me how this was just an error, a miscalculation if you will.

    A conscious decision was made to protect revenue during the 2011 season. No one in the Mets forum thought he was going to sign for anywhere near the $80 million that Sandy apologists are now saying he thought he could sign him for. No, he held on to Reyes knowing full well he was going to lose him for a draft choice after the season. Guess what folks: That's not rebuilding.

    This season he traded Dickey. Two seasons, two expensive players gone. That's a pattern. Small sample, sure, so we'll have to see whether it continues or not. But I'm not signing on to this whole idea that we're rebuilding for the future just because they traded RA Dickey for a bunch of kids. Maybe Sandy is just turning the Mets into The Oakland A's East.

    Maybe. We don't know.

    We won't know until we see them retain expensive players as they mature or bring in expensive players when they're ready to make a run for a championship.

    Until then, I'd be careful about making any assumptions as to the direction of this team.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 12-24-2012 at 10:11 AM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  6. #36
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    It is possible to miss R.A. and still be happy that Sandy made the right move and acquired Toronto's top prospect along with a young hopeful starting pitcher in the process. Our season will be for nothing so we can root for the Jays to knock off the Stinkees and watch R.A. and Reyes get their rings.

  7. #37
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    What a great gesture, I really am going to miss Dickey.

    Wish him all the best of luck and hopefully he can do some great things with the Jays


    2014-2015 New York Knicks

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoicSentry View Post
    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...sEnabled=false



    Damn the Wilpons for making this necessary...
    Maybe he doesn't realize it yet...or maybe with these words...he has.

    R. A. Dickey has already been given his immortality card by Mets fans. No matter what he does, or where he goes...he will ALWAYS be a Met...and ALWAYS be regarded as one of the great Mets.

    Years from now, when he retires...he will always have a home here waiting for him if he so wishes.

    THANK YOU PROKY!!!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    This season he traded Dickey. Two seasons, two expensive players gone. That's a pattern. Small sample, sure, so we'll have to see whether it continues or not. But I'm not signing on to this whole idea that we're rebuilding for the future just because they traded RA Dickey for a bunch of kids. Maybe Sandy is just turning the Mets into The Oakland A's East.

    Maybe. We don't know.

    We won't know until we see them retain expensive players as they mature or bring in expensive players when they're ready to make a run for a championship.

    Until then, I'd be careful about making any assumptions as to the direction of this team.
    Meh...that is a bit of a stretch.
    Two players gone a pattern does not make.
    How's the saying go?
    "Once is random, Twice is a coincidence, Three times is a pattern."

    Look, I am on board with Reyes, never thought he'd be resigned. Just looking at what money was available versus the payroll budget kinda made it obvious. BUT, I am on the fence about SA possibly trying to find a taker for Reyes before the deadline. Whatever happened...whatever the real reason...once we passed the deadline, Reyes was gone.

    But let's think a bit. If you really wanted to to go with your opinion, you would have included Beltran and K-Rod.

    Beltran: 2010 (Traded for a very good prospect).
    Reyes: 2011 (Allowed to walk)
    Dickey/Thole: 2012 (Traded for the best C prospect in the game +)

    So there is your pattern...unless you don't count Beltran for Wheeler, for some reason. Except guys move around all the time, every year. You can possibly have a pattern on every team.

    It's quite clear the Mets are already in a rebuilding mode. The rotation has depth, but not solidified by any stretch yet. Only experience will tell that. There is no core to be found as of yet, since every position minus Wright is basically up for grabs. So we are not going to see any FA's coming here until then. But trading away large contracts or potential large contracts for kids IS rebuilding. That is how it is done.

    Now you are right to be wary because rebuilding doesn't always work. Just like overpaying for FA's doesn't always work...it's ALL a crap-shoot. To be honest you have the outlook of what a real fan of rebuilding should have. So whether you believe it or not...you have the right mindset to handle a rebuild.
    Last edited by wdwyer; 12-24-2012 at 03:49 PM.

    THANK YOU PROKY!!!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Dickey wasn't an expensive piece? Who on the Mets not named David Wright is making more than $12 million a year? No, he wasn't an expensive piece in 2013 but he would have been in 2014.

    They made sure to get something back before having to pay him.

    Sandy has done a good job in bringing in value and that's a good start. But if Ike Davis starts raking do you lock him up before he hits free agency? Or do you trade him off too?

    I'm seeing a pattern right now. With the exception of David Wright, every player who has excelled for this team has been let go. Everyone in here is assuming there's a rhyme to this reason and maybe there is.

    I'm just saying let's see how things develop before assuming the Wilpons with Alderson are going to build a team from bottom to top. To Sandy's credit, he's building a nice foundation. Now let's see what happens when it's time to add an expensive cherry on top of the ice cream sundae.
    Johan is making 25.5 million this year.

    As for the 2nd bolded statement, they call it rebuilding.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdwyer View Post
    Meh...that is a bit of a stretch.
    Two players gone a pattern does not make.
    How's the saying go?
    "Once is random, Twice is a coincidence, Three times is a pattern."

    Look, I am on board with Reyes, never thought he'd be resigned. Just looking at what money was available versus the payroll budget kinda made it obvious. BUT, I am on the fence about SA possibly trying to find a taker for Reyes before the deadline. Whatever happened...whatever the real reason...once we passed the deadline, Reyes was gone.

    But let's think a bit. If you really wanted to to go with your opinion, you would have included Beltran and K-Rod.

    Beltran: 2010 (Traded for a very good prospect).
    Reyes: 2011 (Allowed to walk)
    Dickey/Thole: 2012 (Traded for the best C prospect in the game +)

    So there is your pattern...unless you don't count Beltran for Wheeler, for some reason. Except guys move around all the time, every year. You can possibly have a pattern on every team.

    It's quite clear the Mets are already in a rebuilding mode. The rotation has depth, but not solidified by any stretch yet. Only experience will tell that. There is no core to be found as of yet, since every position minus Wright is basically up for grabs. So we are not going to see any FA's coming here until then. But trading away large contracts or potential large contracts for kids IS rebuilding. That is how it is done.

    Now you are right to be wary because rebuilding doesn't always work. Just like overpaying for FA's doesn't always work...it's ALL a crap-shoot. To be honest you have the outlook of what a real fan of rebuilding should have. So whether you believe it or not...you have the right mindset to handle a rebuild.
    I can handle a rebuild. I can't handle being a fan of the Oakland A's East. There's an assumption the team will spend when the time is right. I have my doubts.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Johan is making 25.5 million this year.

    As for the 2nd bolded statement, they call it rebuilding.
    I didn't think it was necessary for me to qualify "every expensive player" with "every expensive player with value."
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I can handle a rebuild. I can't handle being a fan of the Oakland A's East. There's an assumption the team will spend when the time is right. I have my doubts.
    I get how wary you are. Rebuilding is a scary proposition. Especially for a market like NY which has historically been a "what have you done for me lately" and a "I want my Championship NOW!" kind of town.

    The big fear with rebuilding is that sometime within the 3-5 years it really takes (in the 2013-2015 range), that the Wilpons will enjoy the money they are saving and not open up the pocketbooks again. That is a real concern, one that SHOULD be looked at constantly by fans. But until that day comes (if it does), this is exactly what rebuilding should be...looking towards the farm to see what we have before we dive back into FA. We don't even have a core yet (Wright, maybe Ike doesn't cut it)...that should be the only concern going into this season.

    Save the big worry for later...you'll save yourself an ulcer.
    Last edited by wdwyer; 12-24-2012 at 04:24 PM.

    THANK YOU PROKY!!!

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdwyer View Post
    I get how wary you are. Rebuilding is a scary proposition. Especially for a market like NY which has historically been a "what have you done for me lately" and a "I want my Championship NOW!" kind of town.

    The big fear with rebuilding is that sometime within the 3-5 years it really takes (in the 2013-2015 range), that the Wilpons will enjoy the money they are saving and not open up the pocketbooks again. That is a real concern, one that SHOULD be looked at constantly by fans. But until that day comes (if it does), this is exactly what rebuilding should be...looking towards the farm to see what we have before we dive back into FA. We don't even have a core yet (Wright, maybe Ike doesn't cut it)...that should be the only concern going into this season.

    Save the big worry for later...you'll save yourself an ulcer.
    LOL, well, if you think I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt that is out of the question, OUT of the question!
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdwyer View Post
    Maybe he doesn't realize it yet...or maybe with these words...he has.

    R. A. Dickey has already been given his immortality card by Mets fans. No matter what he does, or where he goes...he will ALWAYS be a Met...and ALWAYS be regarded as one of the great Mets.

    Years from now, when he retires...he will always have a home here waiting for him if he so wishes.
    Beautifully stated wdwyer........

    Shea Stadium Scoreboard May 31, 1964



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