So long Swish...

[LeoYankee]

Montero stinks. Period.

[Rylinkus]

Again, point being that Montero was hoarded and protected against bigger and better fish and then frittered away at the last second when Cashmanhad nowhere else to turn and waited too long.

Hamilton's WORK resume is certainly no worse than Pavano's prior to 2004 where his career numbers are abyssmal or Jaret Wrights who were as mediocre as Pavanos were abyssmal.

While I certainly agree that injuries are a part of the game so is Hamilton's work history.

At 4 years (which I think he could've been had for but that's subjective) it is a calculated risk. Certainly no more calculated then signing a .219 hitter with 5 hrs and a guy who was shut down with arm issues early in his career.

Didn't we offer Montero for Lee? And Halladay? But he alone wasn't enough? And those moves also involved taking on money.

And I'd suggest it is hypocritical on some level to keep bringing up Pineda's DUI, while being so willing to take on a man drummed out of baseball for heroin use. You seem to blame Cash for Pineda's DUI, yet won't him to take on a man with known character flaws.

Honestly, I don't want another giant contract on an aging superstar at the moment. But if we do need to pay big money, I guess I'd rather hope we can find a way to resign Cano without it becoming insanely expensive. I'm sick of paying players for what they did on their prior team.

[Rylinkus]

Montero stinks. Period.

Montero will hit. And I wish he were doing it for us. Hopefully Pineda comes back from his injury and can be an effective starter again.

[sauronthepower]

Montero stinks. Period.

Montero did hit in the playoffs for us.

Now he's on a crap team in an even crappier park.

IMO its just a matter of time before we come to regret this decision.

[sauronthepower]

Didn't we offer Montero for Lee? And Halladay? But he alone wasn't enough? And those moves also involved taking on money.

And I'd suggest it is hypocritical on some level to keep bringing up Pineda's DUI, while being so willing to take on a man drummed out of baseball for heroin use. You seem to blame Cash for Pineda's DUI, yet won't him to take on a man with known character flaws.

Honestly, I don't want another giant contract on an aging superstar at the moment. But if we do need to pay big money, I guess I'd rather hope we can find a way to resign Cano without it becoming insanely expensive. I'm sick of paying players for what they did on their prior team.

Is it a double standard. Probably.

Does that automatically exonerate Michael Pineda, and for that matter, Joba Chamberlain, for their poor decision making, I don't think so.

You yourself spoke heavily and correctly against DUIs as a potential life threatening offense in another thread. Hamilton's heroin use hurts no one but Hamilton and doesn't carry the risk of collateral damage unless he turns the key. No matter, I'm not endorsing Hamilton's drug use but I am indicting Pinedas stupidity.

Lee wasn't coming anyway either through mid season trade or FA. We all well know that he preferred the comforts of Philidelphias treatment program for his kid and Seattle was determined to stick it to us at the highest level possible.

However everything that was rumored to have been asked for Halladay has come to exactly nothing for this organization.

Joba has been a disaster at every level despite a white hot start. And this disaster is equally culpable from both Joba and Cashmans handling of him.

The killer Bs are a nonexistent shadow of their former hype.

Brackman is gone.

Hughes, while somewhat successful in the rotation and in the pen has been a severe letdown from the hype and expectations of 2007 and is now on his way to free agency to boot.

All of Cashmans hoarding of prospects have yielded a comically low return, yet we keep coming back in these talkbacks to his stellar developmental philosophy over and over and over again.

Where our minor league system was highly touted just two years ago all of a sudden we have no one anywhere near fruition in the pipeline going into 2013. What does that tell us about Brian Cashmans, and by extension the staff he has chosen to employ, ability to do anything other then spend money foolishly in a broken philosophy?

As far as paying Halladay the requisite salary this is where we are in disagreement of opinion.

I would've moved heaven and earth to get the best arm in the game.

Cashman apparently felt that Hughes and Chamberlain were a better investment.

[NYY09]

Whose lack of long term franchise planning was responsible for not matriculating a position for Montero at the right time?

It certainly wasn't mine.

And it's hardly ballsy to even engage in Roy Halladay talks and then use that very same chip on Michael Pineda.

Hardly ballsy at all.

I would hardly call offering Montero for Halladay "engaged trade talks", and your first statement is just off on many levels.

[NYY09]

Again, point being that Montero was hoarded and protected against bigger and better fish and then frittered away at the last second when Cashmanhad nowhere else to turn and waited too long.

Hamilton's WORK resume is certainly no worse than Pavano's prior to 2004 where his career numbers are abyssmal or Jaret Wrights who were as mediocre as Pavanos were abyssmal.

While I certainly agree that injuries are a part of the game so is Hamilton's work history.

At 4 years (which I think he could've been had for but that's subjective) it is a calculated risk. Certainly no more calculated then signing a .219 hitter with 5 hrs and a guy who was shut down with arm issues early in his career.

Offered in the Lee trade and the Halladay "trade proposal", hardly hoarded. And how do you know where Cashman had to turn? you're assuming a bit much dont you think?

[sauronthepower]

I would hardly call offering Montero for Halladay "engaged trade talks", and your first statement is just off on many levels.

I guess you misunderstood.

We were never seriously engaged on the best arm I the game in Halladay specifically because we were protecting Montero and by extension Cashmans Kids youth program.

Hoarding untried, untested, unproven prospects well beyond the apex of their value has been the lone accomplishment of this executive regimes ability to cull and develop young talent.

I must not have made that clear enough.

[NYY09]

I guess you misunderstood.

We were never seriously engaged on the best arm I the game in Halladay specifically because we were protecting Montero and by extension Cashmans Kids youth program.

Hoarding untried, untested, unproven prospects well beyond the apex of their value has been the lone accomplishment of this executive regimes ability to cull and develop young talent.

I must not have made that clear enough.

The team was never seriously engaged because the Jays weren't trading him inter-division for anything less then a mugging.

[sauronthepower]

The team was never seriously engaged because the Jays weren't trading him inter-division for anything less then a mugging.

You have proof of this of course.

Especially given that Halladay publically stated he wanted out thereby undermining any sense of negotiating leverage by the team by giving up the goose.

Even if we had traded the elite 5 "stars" of our developmental program at that point, my earlier post completely verifies that, with the mediocre exception of Hughes, have amounted to just about exactly nothing for his team going forward.

Hard to get upset over a 'mugging' that nets you pocket change.

[Rylinkus]

Is it a double standard. Probably.

Does that automatically exonerate Michael Pineda, and for that matter, Joba Chamberlain, for their poor decision making, I don't think so.

You yourself spoke heavily and correctly against DUIs as a potential life threatening offense in another thread. Hamilton's heroin use hurts no one but Hamilton and doesn't carry the risk of collateral damage unless he turns the key. No matter, I'm not endorsing Hamilton's drug use but I am indicting Pinedas stupidity.

I don't like DUIs. Dangerous stuff. And I am pissed that fans are more concerned with Arod flirting with a girl than Joba or Pineda driving a car while drunk. As for Hamilton, as an addict, I expect he probably drove at one point or another and endangered people's lives. I suppose it is speculation. But we're not talking a dude of high integrity here.

And what do you disagree about in regards to Halladay's salary. He's not making a bunch of money?

[NYY09]

You have proof of this of course.

Especially given that Halladay publically stated he wanted out thereby undermining any sense of negotiating leverage by the team by giving up the goose.

Even if we had traded the elite 5 "stars" of our developmental program at that point, my earlier post completely verifies that, with the mediocre exception of Hughes, have amounted to just about exactly nothing for his team going forward.

Hard to get upset over a 'mugging' that nets you pocket change.

Yes I have proof, he's in a Philly uniform, not NY, not Boston, the Phillies, over in the NL.

And you're talking about making past decisions with future results, of course it's all obvious now. But I get that some people just like to rant, no worries ....

[sauronthepower]

Yes I have proof, he's in a Philly uniform, not NY, not Boston, the Phillies, over in the NL.

And you're talking about making past decisions with future results, of course it's all obvious now. But I get that some people just like to rant, no worries ....

Ah yes, the three year olds semantic arguement. Argue the process, then argue the results, then argue the process.

You have proof that Toronto wanted a mugging I meant.

A quote or link showing exactly what Toronto SPECIFICALLY asked of Cashman to back up your opinion please. Or am I ranting to demand such a thing?

[sauronthepower]

I don't like DUIs. Dangerous stuff. And I am pissed that fans are more concerned with Arod flirting with a girl than Joba or Pineda driving a car while drunk. As for Hamilton, as an addict, I expect he probably drove at one point or another and endangered people's lives. I suppose it is speculation. But we're not talking a dude of high integrity here.

And what do you disagree about in regards to Halladay's salary. He's not making a bunch of money?

I think slamming his personal integrity is a bit harsh, IMO.

As an addict, especially in the opiate as opposed to narcotic family, it's a sickness. I'm pretty sure he's miserable about ruining his sobriety but addicts often struggle with their moral code versus their physical (and yes, opiates are a physical need. Heroin in particular needs to be physically weaned with medically approved method one in order to prevent death of hardcore addicts who have replaced their bodies production of certain endorphins in a way that the narcotic family does not)

Now, I am not defending, as I stated earlier, Hamilton's problems. He is a definite risk. What he does bring to the table however is a verifiable work history and a potential to really capitalize on the stadiums offensive design flaws. I would certainly not feel good about the signing but it might be no more riskier then signing a mediocre Wright, a terrible Pavano, or a weak Swisher, all of whom had spotty to terrible WORK histories prior to being signed by Brian.

I do not disagree with you over the double standard ARod hate. He wants a little poon, hardly measures up to risking the lives of others.

[NYY09]

Ah yes, the three year olds semantic arguement. Argue the process, then argue the results, then argue the process.

You have proof that Toronto wanted a mugging I meant.

A quote or link showing exactly what Toronto SPECIFICALLY asked of Cashman to back up your opinion please. Or am I ranting to demand such a thing?

If you're curious enough you'll find it. I on the other hand will not take the time to do so, no offense.