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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    He hasn't done a bad job with the farm with what he had to work with. He has done a pretty mediocre job with the MLB team given what he had to work with. I see lots of complaints that he was left some big mess by Minaya, but I just don't see it. If we had just keep all of Omar's players, this still would have been a pretty good team last year. I was reminded of this recently browsing Clay Davenport's site, and seeing Wright, Reyes, Pagan and Beltran all in the top 15 in the NL last year in his equivalent runs stat.
    You do realize that K-Rod, Ollie and Luis were Omar's players too. And who is to say that Pagan and Beltran would have the same years here as they did, respectively, on the Giants and Cards. And if he was able to retain Reyes (which I am confident he would have, if not for the wildly spending Marlins throwing around money last year) you wouldn't have had Tejada's or Murphy's numbers to add in.

    So, you're saying that we might have had a slightly better mediocre team than we actually did last year, if we had only kept Omar's $143 million payroll and lost another $70 million or so. (Might being the operational word there.) Is that it?
    Former B'klyn Dodger fan. Mets Maniac since 1962.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbummin View Post
    You do realize that K-Rod, Ollie and Luis were Omar's players too. And who is to say that Pagan and Beltran would have the same years here as they did, respectively, on the Giants and Cards. And if he was able to retain Reyes (which I am confident he would have, if not for the wildly spending Marlins throwing around money last year) you wouldn't have had Tejada's or Murphy's numbers to add in.

    So, you're saying that we might have had a slightly better mediocre team than we actually did last year, if we had only kept Omar's $143 million payroll and lost another $70 million or so. (Might being the operational word there.) Is that it?
    I will say it again.

    It is obviously OK to be a mediocre team as long as the payroll is high and we have star players.

    Look at what he said.

    If you just kept all that talent, and filled in the rest of the roster with replacement players, this wouldn't have been a playoff team, but it still would have been an at least average team.
    Yeah so forget Zack Wheeler and the haul for Dickey. Payroll is high and we have aging stars on the team. This is NY after all.

  3. #48
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    del

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrock229 View Post
    You simply don't get it. Just because we cut money does not mean we should spend that money elsewhere just to spend it. They already said they are willing to spend next offseason if the right players present themselves. There are no players worth spending on, especially in a season where we will have young players showing what they can do.



    Once again, you don't get it. I wanted to trade Niese as well but under the right circumstance, and I'm assuming he did too. We didn't want to trade Niese because he isn't a good pitcher. He is. However, we know Sandy Alderson could pull off a great return for Niese if a team showed enough interest. We supported a Niese trade if the right deal presented himself. I tried explaining this to you before but you fail to understand each time I try.

    Let's exaggerate to try and prove the point.

    If the Angels offered up Trout for Niese, you trade Niese. This would never happen, but if a team overpays for Niese, we accept the deal.



    I absolutely do get your and your ilks argument, I just don't agree with it. At all.

    There's no point in improving the team according to you, I disagree. Yet, next year there's a point? that's ridiculous.

    How is next years FA class any better?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunbummin View Post
    You do realize that K-Rod, Ollie and Luis were Omar's players too. And who is to say that Pagan and Beltran would have the same years here as they did, respectively, on the Giants and Cards. And if he was able to retain Reyes (which I am confident he would have, if not for the wildly spending Marlins throwing around money last year) you wouldn't have had Tejada's or Murphy's numbers to add in.

    So, you're saying that we might have had a slightly better mediocre team than we actually did last year, if we had only kept Omar's $143 million payroll and lost another $70 million or so. (Might being the operational word there.) Is that it?
    Nah, I'm saying that's a playoff team with a payroll under $130M, which is entirely reasonable in this market. The payroll was under $100M in 2012 and will be again in 2013. Beltran, Reyes, Pagan, and Dickey combined will make $35M in 2013.

    And K-Rod was still a good pitcher over that contract, he averaged a 2.88 ERA, 137 ERA+, 3.14 FIP, and was top 30 in fangraphs WAR for relievers for that 3-year period. I certainly think he was overpaid, but he wasn't bad.

    And Castillo was bad, but he was also cheap, at $6M a year. Dumb contract, but not crippling, and no dumber than it would be to give Scott Hairston that kind of money right now. Plus, we were done paying him in 2011; that had no impact at all on 2012. Ollie was another dumb move, but off the books after 2010. No impact at all on 2011 or 2012.

    No one is arguing Omar didn't make some dumb moves. Pretty much all big market GMs who spend some money will end up with some dumb moves. In Omar's case, the good moves still outweighed the bad. And the only bad one that had much impact on Sandy's tenure has been Jason Bay.

    The idea that Sandy has somehow been handcuffed by Omar's few mistakes is laughable. Omar was not a good GM. The problem is that Sandy so far hasn't been any better.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Nah, I'm saying that's a playoff team with a payroll under $130M, which is entirely reasonable in this market. The payroll was under $100M in 2012 and will be again in 2013. Beltran, Reyes, Pagan, and Dickey combined will make $35M in 2013.

    And K-Rod was still a good pitcher over that contract, he averaged a 2.88 ERA, 137 ERA+, 3.14 FIP, and was top 30 in fangraphs WAR for relievers for that 3-year period. I certainly think he was overpaid, but he wasn't bad.

    And Castillo was bad, but he was also cheap, at $6M a year. Dumb contract, but not crippling, and no dumber than it would be to give Scott Hairston that kind of money right now. Plus, we were done paying him in 2011; that had no impact at all on 2012. Ollie was another dumb move, but off the books after 2010. No impact at all on 2011 or 2012.

    No one is arguing Omar didn't make some dumb moves. Pretty much all big market GMs who spend some money will end up with some dumb moves. In Omar's case, the good moves still outweighed the bad. And the only bad one that had much impact on Sandy's tenure has been Jason Bay.

    The idea that Sandy has somehow been handcuffed by Omar's few mistakes is laughable. Omar was not a good GM. The problem is that Sandy so far hasn't been any better.
    The pro Sandy philosophy is that the team is building, so he gets a pass for 2011, 12, and 13, which we've already written off.

    So that's basically three seasons to prepare for 2014. In one year, we have to hope that Harvey and Wheeler pan out since we no longer have an ace. We have to hope that D'Arnaud, injured for most of all last season, is all that. And we have to hope that by this time next year, we'll know who our three starting outfielders are along with a closer.

    We also have to hope that Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, and Daniel Murphy continue to grow and contribute.

    I would have hoped that going into the 2011 season, we'd be considerably further along heading into 2013 than we are now. But let's see where we are in 2014.

    2015?

    2016....?
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 12-26-2012 at 09:35 AM.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The pro Sandy philosophy is that the team is building, so he gets a pass for 2011, 12, and 13, which we've already written off.

    So that's basically three seasons to prepare for 2014. In one year, we have to hope that Harvey and Wheeler pan out since we no longer have an ace. We have to hope that D'Arnaud, injured for most of all last season, is all that. And we have to hope that by this time next year, we'll know who our three starting outfielders are along with a closer.

    We also have to hope that Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, and Daniel Murphy continue to grow and contribute.

    I would have hoped that going into the 2011 season, we'd be considerably further along heading into 2013 than we are now. But let's see where we are in 2014.

    2015?

    2016....?

    The 'plan' as set out right now is so flawed it is ridiculously flawed. It assumes we have 2 aces and TDA is a star in waiting, it assumes we find 3 OF'ers from out of thin air, and assumes that Johan's expring contract heralds a new are of spending that the expired contracts of KROP, Beltran, Luis, Perez, RA, Bay et all have not...

    The Mets have shifted endless payroll off the books, and have spent nothing whatsoever to improve the team anywhere, they wasted the Jose 'dividend' on garbage like fat frank, and got no prospects either.

    Why would anyone believe that one more expired deal makes the Mets big-time spenders?

    That makes no sense.

    Three years thrown away already including next year, BUT the team that was not good enough to give a damn about for three years is suddenly a contender in 2014?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    Bollocks.

    PS - I forgot to add that this nonsense 'plan' assumes a good BP appears from nowhere...hmmm.
    Last edited by Marty Mcfly; 12-26-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Nah, I'm saying that's a playoff team with a payroll under $130M, which is entirely reasonable in this market. The payroll was under $100M in 2012 and will be again in 2013. Beltran, Reyes, Pagan, and Dickey combined will make $35M in 2013.

    And K-Rod was still a good pitcher over that contract, he averaged a 2.88 ERA, 137 ERA+, 3.14 FIP, and was top 30 in fangraphs WAR for relievers for that 3-year period. I certainly think he was overpaid, but he wasn't bad.

    And Castillo was bad, but he was also cheap, at $6M a year. Dumb contract, but not crippling, and no dumber than it would be to give Scott Hairston that kind of money right now. Plus, we were done paying him in 2011; that had no impact at all on 2012. Ollie was another dumb move, but off the books after 2010. No impact at all on 2011 or 2012.

    No one is arguing Omar didn't make some dumb moves. Pretty much all big market GMs who spend some money will end up with some dumb moves. In Omar's case, the good moves still outweighed the bad. And the only bad one that had much impact on Sandy's tenure has been Jason Bay.

    The idea that Sandy has somehow been handcuffed by Omar's few mistakes is laughable. Omar was not a good GM. The problem is that Sandy so far hasn't been any better.
    Is the farm system better?
    Some might say it is considerably better. Even the most jaded fan would agree with that.

    Also in 2011 the Mets payroll was 140+ million, and the owners had an unsettling financial future. One would would say that had a serious impact on impending moves. And while k-rod was a solid player, his 17 million dollar vested option was absurd. Both Dickey were traded for prospects that would eventually or are top 15 prospects.


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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Is the farm system better?
    Some might say it is considerably better. Even the most jaded fan would agree with that.

    Also in 2011 the Mets payroll was 140+ million, and the owners had an unsettling financial future. One would would say that had a serious impact on impending moves. And while k-rod was a solid player, his 17 million dollar vested option was absurd. Both Dickey were traded for prospects that would eventually or are top 15 prospects.
    This...But then again the system has to be better. After trading Dickey and Beltran and not losing picks to free agent signings.

    With that said Yea he did a great job in getting the best return possible for both Beltran and Dickey.

    My main issues are with SA are:

    1) Why didn't he trade Reyes? Was he told not to trade him by the Wilpons to keep fans in the stands? Or was he told he would be given the money to resign him? Or did he just make a bad decision on his own?

    2) He could have def gotten a better return for K-Rod. Yea the 17 million was absurd but still could have gotten at least a couple of high potential low level prospects for him if he shopped around more.


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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I would have hoped that going into the 2011 season, we'd be considerably further along heading into 2013 than we are now. But let's see where we are in 2014.

    2015?

    2016....?
    I don't really mind if it takes until 2015 or 2016, so long as we are headed in the right direction. I think that's par for the course if you are counting on building from the farm, it takes a really long time for those bets to pay off. By the same token, I think the 2-3 year hangover we got from bad contracts under Omar was pretty much par for the course for the win-now strategy he used to have the team competitive from 2006-2008.

    I think you have two very different approaches there, but I don't think one approach is clearly superior. They both come with significant headaches, and neither guarantees success.

    I actually might prefer some balance between the two. John Schuerholz for example always built from the farm, always took chances on younger players, rarely gave out big contracts to players over 30, and at the same time he often traded prospects to fill immediate needs, he was always in "win now mode", trying to field a competitive team, and was always aggressive at the deadline, because he always believed his team had a chance to win.

    As for Sandy, I do think he has a plan which makes some sense for the team right now, but I also think it's still going to take some very smart moves down the road to really pull it off. Getting good prospects so far for the type of talent he was dealing should be the easy part.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Is the farm system better?
    Some might say it is considerably better. Even the most jaded fan would agree with that.

    Also in 2011 the Mets payroll was 140+ million, and the owners had an unsettling financial future. One would would say that had a serious impact on impending moves. And while k-rod was a solid player, his 17 million dollar vested option was absurd. Both Dickey were traded for prospects that would eventually or are top 15 prospects.
    Since trading Dickey, yes I think it's better. But prior to that trade, I don't think it was. And I don't think I'm the most jaded fan.

  12. #57
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    I'm really not sold on some of SA draft picks. I really hope Nimmo and Cecchini develop into good players but I'm not sold on them. The reviews on Nimmo have certainly been less then stellar. Don't get me wrong they both have potential to be good players but they still haven't drafted the potential star positional player. They also could have done far better then Matt Reynolds last year.


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  13. #58
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    A Scathing Review Of Sandy Alderson

    Yup, their drafting so far have been HS players with lower ceilings and high floors much like Minaya's draft were except they drafted college guys with that type of potential.

  14. #59
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    The only real issue I have with SA is the Reyes fiasco. He completely screwed the pooch on that. I understand not making any major FA moves now and can deal with it -- in 2014 we will have a much better idea of how the pieces fit and can address trades and FA acquisitions based on specific needs. Not to mention, quality FA's will be much more willing to join an up and coming team that is on the cusp of contending.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by acerimusdux View Post
    Since trading Dickey, yes I think it's better. But prior to that trade, I don't think it was. And I don't think I'm the most jaded fan.
    I disagree. I think, they were well on their way prior to the trade. The Dickey trade just made them roughly a top 10 farm. They are driven by their excellent pitching prospects and that's with losing Harvey.

    I wasn't implying that you were a jaded fan, and for that I'm sorry.


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