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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    You make the claim that these "theoretical liberals" you speak of favor gun ownership rights, So, in what way, other than advocating for gun ownership rights do you believe the NRA is "an affront to almost all of their other political sensibilities?"

    BTW, No hypocrisy at all. The gun club wants committed members. They could have a charter that says they support the NRA and all it is about. The NRA is the only national group fighting for their rights. They support that mission 100%. They want a membership that believes in gun ownership and is willing to support the national effort that is the NRA and all it's legislative efforts 100%. No wishy-washy membership, but a real "stand up and be counted" membership that shows that support for gun ownership rights with their hard earned dollars.

    In good gun clubs the mission is clear and all groups are treated the same. The various disciplines are never at each other’s throats and they always work together and have respect for one another. That is something liberals fail consistently on is the respect thing, because they only respect themselves. The trap/skeet/clays guys have respect for the practical/action guys have respect for the cowboy action guys have respect for the DCM guys have respect for the hunters have respect for the membership focused on personal protection and on and on and on.

    I know you left wingers questions are only used as a method to attempt to divide and conquer.

    A true gun enthusiast joins the NRA gladly and without hesitation

    Phony’s, well they are the ones that question membership in the NRA.
    Those "theoretical liberals" include myself. So they aren't theoretical at all. I consider myself a supporter of gun owners to a limit. I think everyone has a right to keep a gun for self defense but subscribe to the notion that if you need to get off more than 10-15 shots, then you need to involve law enforcement and not yourself. I also support people's right to hunt, but again if you need to put a high magazine clip into your gun to hunt, then you definitely need to go to a gun range or get lessons because that meat will be useless if you make it look like swiss cheese.

    So its not hypocrisy if the NRA is really serious about committed members. I guess you will also be ok with the unions being that serious. See here is where the hypocrisy comes in. The notion that the unions are a broad and diverse group that can't possibly be represented by the union leadership BUT the gun owners are of one mind and a requirement that all gun owners and those who want to use the gun range need to join the NRA in order to use the firearm or the range is acceptable.

    If a "true gun enthusiast" would "gladly and without hesitation" join the NRA, then why must they be forced to join the NRA? If its so great why make them do anything? In my experience, people that force me to do something do so because they know that I won't want to do that action.

    But you lose be with the left-wingers bull****. So if you are going to bring that nonsense into this forum, I think you will find that members of this forum from all sides of the spectrum will call your bunk for accusing me of being a left-winger.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    You make the claim that these "theoretical liberals" you speak of favor gun ownership rights, So, in what way, other than advocating for gun ownership rights do you believe the NRA is "an affront to almost all of their other political sensibilities?"

    BTW, No hypocrisy at all. The gun club wants committed members. They could have a charter that says they support the NRA and all it is about. The NRA is the only national group fighting for their rights. They support that mission 100%. They want a membership that believes in gun ownership and is willing to support the national effort that is the NRA and all it's legislative efforts 100%. No wishy-washy membership, but a real "stand up and be counted" membership that shows that support for gun ownership rights with their hard earned dollars.

    In good gun clubs the mission is clear and all groups are treated the same. The various disciplines are never at each other’s throats and they always work together and have respect for one another. That is something liberals fail consistently on is the respect thing, because they only respect themselves. The trap/skeet/clays guys have respect for the practical/action guys have respect for the cowboy action guys have respect for the DCM guys have respect for the hunters have respect for the membership focused on personal protection and on and on and on.

    I know you left wingers questions are only used as a method to attempt to divide and conquer.

    A true gun enthusiast joins the NRA gladly and without hesitation

    Phony’s, well they are the ones that question membership in the NRA.
    Negative sir...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Those "theoretical liberals" include myself. So they aren't theoretical at all. I consider myself a supporter of gun owners to a limit. I think everyone has a right to keep a gun for self defense but subscribe to the notion that if you need to get off more than 10-15 shots, then you need to involve law enforcement and not yourself. I also support people's right to hunt, but again if you need to put a high magazine clip into your gun to hunt, then you definitely need to go to a gun range or get lessons because that meat will be useless if you make it look like swiss cheese.

    So its not hypocrisy if the NRA is really serious about committed members. I guess you will also be ok with the unions being that serious. See here is where the hypocrisy comes in. The notion that the unions are a broad and diverse group that can't possibly be represented by the union leadership BUT the gun owners are of one mind and a requirement that all gun owners and those who want to use the gun range need to join the NRA in order to use the firearm or the range is acceptable.

    If a "true gun enthusiast" would "gladly and without hesitation" join the NRA, then why must they be forced to join the NRA? If its so great why make them do anything? In my experience, people that force me to do something do so because they know that I won't want to do that action.

    But you lose be with the left-wingers bull****. So if you are going to bring that nonsense into this forum, I think you will find that members of this forum from all sides of the spectrum will call your bunk for accusing me of being a left-winger.
    It isn't force, it is a requirement of membership.

    Nothing force about it, if you don't like the by-law set feel free to start your own gun club and set up any structure you want. It is after all a leisure activity. There are many kinds of gun clubs. I have been to some that are indoor ranges and only have a pistol facility. I have been to others that are almost exclusive shotgun sports and have clays, trap and skeet facility. I have been to others that have it all. Join one that suits your wants and needs. If you wanted to join a "gun club" to practice your pistol shooting and the club didn't have a pistol range, what would you do? Demand they install one for you? No, you would find a pistol range and since the NRA is the antithesis of who you are, you would make sure the club didn't require you to join the NRA.

    Now, on to your union issue. Union membership is required for employment. To work there, there is no choice but to join. That has nothing to do with the “voluntary” membership of a club for leisure activities, it is a requirement for employment.

    There is nothing the same about these two issues.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    It isn't force, it is a requirement of membership.

    Nothing force about it, if you don't like the by-law set feel free to start your own gun club and set up any structure you want. It is after all a leisure activity. There are many kinds of gun clubs. I have been to some that are indoor ranges and only have a pistol facility. I have been to others that are almost exclusive shotgun sports and have clays, trap and skeet facility. I have been to others that have it all. Join one that suits your wants and needs. If you wanted to join a "gun club" to practice your pistol shooting and the club didn't have a pistol range, what would you do? Demand they install one for you? No, you would find a pistol range and since the NRA is the antithesis of who you are, you would make sure the club didn't require you to join the NRA.

    Now, on to your union issue. Union membership is required for employment. To work there, there is no choice but to join. That has nothing to do with the “voluntary” membership of a club for leisure activities, it is a requirement for employment.

    There is nothing the same about these two issues.
    But that is the problem, the gun ranges are requiring the membership to merely use the facilities. If you don't like the policy you go to another range, which probably contains the same membership requirement.

    But again, the hypocrisy comes from saying that this requirement is acceptable because someone can go to another gun range but if a union does it that it is overruled by the law. It is hypocrisy of the highest order.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post

    Now, on to your union issue. Union membership is required for employment. To work there, there is no choice but to join. That has nothing to do with the “voluntary” membership of a club for leisure activities, it is a requirement for employment.

    There is nothing the same about these two issues.
    A true work enthusiast joins the union gladly and without hesitation

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    But that is the problem, the gun ranges are requiring the membership to merely use the facilities. If you don't like the policy you go to another range, which probably contains the same membership requirement.

    But again, the hypocrisy comes from saying that this requirement is acceptable because someone can go to another gun range but if a union does it that it is overruled by the law. It is hypocrisy of the highest order.
    It is a distinction with a significant difference. And here it is CLUB, voluntary membership, leisure activity and UNION, forced membership, employment.

    Now I can’t speak to your 2 examples because I don’t really know what kind of “facility” or “gun range” you are speaking of. If it is a private range, they could very well have evidence that those that are not NRA members lack the skill or the commitment to conduct themselves in a safe and appropriate manner at their facility. If it is a club range, the club leadership and club membership could have determined “and voted on” the requirement that all members support the NRA as the major and most powerful national organization who is fighting for gun rights and against gun control. It could be a safety reason. It could be a political reason. It could be in the by-laws. It could be written in the clubs mission statement. If I disagreed with a by-law or mission statement for a club I considered joining, I would just move on and consider other options.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    It is a distinction with a significant difference. And here it is CLUB, voluntary membership, leisure activity and UNION, forced membership, employment.

    Now I can’t speak to your 2 examples because I don’t really know what kind of “facility” or “gun range” you are speaking of. If it is a private range, they could very well have evidence that those that are not NRA members lack the skill or the commitment to conduct themselves in a safe and appropriate manner at their facility. If it is a club range, the club leadership and club membership could have determined “and voted on” the requirement that all members support the NRA as the major and most powerful national organization who is fighting for gun rights and against gun control. It could be a safety reason. It could be a political reason. It could be in the by-laws. It could be written in the clubs mission statement. If I disagreed with a by-law or mission statement for a club I considered joining, I would just move on and consider other options.
    Everything you are citing as evidence for forced membership into an unassociated group to the shooting range could easily be turned right back at you for an associated group to the employment.

    The most confusing point that you made is that employment is not voluntary, that is dead wrong. All employment in this country is voluntary.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Everything you are citing as evidence for forced membership into an unassociated group to the shooting range could easily be turned right back at you for an associated group to the employment.

    The most confusing point that you made is that employment is not voluntary, that is dead wrong. All employment in this country is voluntary.
    Employment is voluntary, but joining the union is not!
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Employment is voluntary, but joining the union is not!
    Employment is voluntary
    Going to the gun range is voluntary.

    These are established facts that we agree on correct?

    Joining the union is not voluntary
    Joining the NRA is not voluntary.

    Again are these facts we can agree on?

    However, you have 24 states in the United States that have signed right-to-work laws that ban employment contracts that require union membership. So even today, in half the country joining the union is now voluntary. All I'm asking for is similar action on the gun ranges. The NRA should have to compete and not have the gun range force you to join when all you want to do is go there and shoot your gun. You don't want to join the NRA, you don't want to support them or the politicians they support. But because of the power of the NRA and the hypocrisy of many of their supporters (such as yourself), they ignore the hypocrisy or think the NRA is subject to different rules and standards than everyone else in the world.
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  10. #40
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    you continue to try to paint employment and a club membership as the same thing! STOP! Employment is not the same as a club membership.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    ...All I'm asking for is similar action on the gun ranges. The NRA should have to compete and not have the gun range force you to join when all you want to do is go there and shoot your gun. You don't want to join the NRA, you don't want to support them or the politicians they support. But because of the power of the NRA and the hypocrisy of many of their supporters (such as yourself), they ignore the hypocrisy or think the NRA is subject to different rules and standards than everyone else in the world.
    The NRA has nothing to do with a gun club whose membership determined by vote that to be a member in good standing like minded gun owners would hold their club membership and an NRA membership. They wrote it in their by-laws or had it written in their mission statement.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    The NRA has nothing to do with a gun club whose membership determined by vote that to be a member in good standing like minded gun owners would hold their club membership and an NRA membership. They wrote it in their by-laws or had it written in their mission statement.
    My dad always tells me "if its not the money, its the money". Those gun clubs and the NRA don't have this arrangement for their heath...

    It funds an entirely separate organization from the club or the individual, that the individual may or may not want to join and as I said we already have these types of contracts and arrangements banned in 24 states. But no one has a problem with this one for some reason.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    My dad always tells me "if its not the money, its the money". Those gun clubs and the NRA don't have this arrangement for their heath...
    Yes, they do, the health of the fight against gun control. Who do you think makes up the leadership and membership of local gun clubs and gun ranges? It is not people that just sort of believe in gun rights and gun ownership, it is advocates. It is people that truly believe in the second amendment and all it entails. It isn't people that are, and I quote "liberal in nature but favor gun ownership rights" it is advocates. Those that hold the leadership positions and the rank and file in gun clubs and ranges, for the most part believe in the work the NRA does. Most, if not all, know, that if it wasn't for them and the money they spend battling organizations like Brady and electing politicians that believe in the second amendment the activity that thy enjoy would vanish.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    But that is the problem, the gun ranges are requiring the membership to merely use the facilities. If you don't like the policy you go to another range, which probably contains the same membership requirement.

    But again, the hypocrisy comes from saying that this requirement is acceptable because someone can go to another gun range but if a union does it that it is overruled by the law. It is hypocrisy of the highest order.
    Don't go to a "gun club".

    Many gun stores also operate private ranges as part of their business, some indoor, some outdoor. You're going to have to drop the "use the facilities" angle as the clubs being "clubs" are going to reserve the facilities for members in good standing which I'm sure you know. The gun store only wants your money and will be happy to take it.

    I'm not sure why you're stuck on the hypocrisy thing though, you are the only one making that connection in the thread.

    "Gun clubs" are just that, clubs. It would be just like showing up at the local Democratic organization and whining because they wouldn't let you in the door wearing your Romney gear, same thing really. Because it's a club I believe, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, they are allowed to make those stipulations if they like. And if you "don't like" then don't join.

    I'm not condoning the practice but I believe there's is nothing illegal or hypocritical about it as the NRA is only standing up for gun owner rights and not the larger slate on the union agenda.....
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Employment is voluntary
    Going to the gun range is voluntary.

    These are established facts that we agree on correct?

    Joining the union is not voluntary
    Joining the NRA is not voluntary.

    Again are these facts we can agree on?

    However, you have 24 states in the United States that have signed right-to-work laws that ban employment contracts that require union membership. So even today, in half the country joining the union is now voluntary. All I'm asking for is similar action on the gun ranges. The NRA should have to compete and not have the gun range force you to join when all you want to do is go there and shoot your gun. You don't want to join the NRA, you don't want to support them or the politicians they support. But because of the power of the NRA and the hypocrisy of many of their supporters (such as yourself), they ignore the hypocrisy or think the NRA is subject to different rules and standards than everyone else in the world.
    Easy there turbo, I can join the NRA because I want to. Send in the membership fee and the proper form and "bang', I'm in.

    Not quite the same with the union, ever try to just join the Teamsters?
    You have to be "employed in a union shop" to join. I'm not certain if they still have an initiation period anymore, but you have to be on the payroll, no exceptions....

    Sorry, missed the response above....
    Last edited by corralski; 12-26-2012 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Because some days I have to read better.....
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