Execs rank Sox 2nd-most improved team

[bagwell368]

Shoot, removing Bobby Valentine and shedding those Yankee-esque contracts should put us at #1 IMO. A lot of fans keep waiting for us to improve our SP or solidify the top of the lineup but it's not gonna happen. We aren't trying to build a clear-cut WS Champ for 2013, we're fielding a team that has enough talent to be competitive and if all goes right, be a playoff contender, which I believe we will. This is a holdover roster...we are going back to building.

Only in Boston can we rebuild w/o looking like we are rebuilding. God, I love it.

The LAD deal was in season, so i believe it's out of scope.

[wolf82]

It's all gonna depend how their SP and pen does. I don't care if the sox put up 4-5 runs, if the SP can't last 5 + innings, and the pen implodes again, they are not gonna end up like last year.

I don't care how good of a "club house guy" Dempster, and Victorino are. The fact is, if they start losing, their good club house persona doesn't matter. The media, and fans will be out in force saying BC drop the ball again, and wasted money. Lets just see how well they handle being under the microscope in this town.

[bagwell368]

It's all gonna depend how their SP and pen does. I don't care if the sox put up 4-5 runs, if the SP can't last 5 + innings, and the pen implodes again, they are not gonna end up like last year.

I don't care how good of a "club house guy" Dempster, and Victorino are. The fact is, if they start losing, their good club house persona doesn't matter. The media, and fans will be out in force saying BC drop the ball again, and wasted money. Lets just see how well they handle being under the microscope in this town.

Victorino is unflappable. I wouldn't worry about him. Dempster is an unkownn in that regard.

Don't forget, if we are 9 games out of the 2nd WC at the deadline a lot of these guys will be dealt off - for specs. So we'll in effect take what we have the most of to spare - cash - translate it to FA's - and then re-translate that to specs which will only make the 2015-2016 rebirth as a young team that much stronger and more sure. This sell off can also be done in 2014 and 2015 to some extent as well.

I'd be happy to go 80-82 this year and 83-79 next year if we could win 90+ in 5 of the following 7 seasons.

[elements1985]

Don't forget, if we are 9 games out of the 2nd WC at the deadline a lot of these guys will be dealt off - for specs. So we'll in effect take what we have the most of to spare - cash - translate it to FA's - and then re-translate that to specs which

I can see having a high-priced payroll to acquiring younger assets, if and when the team falls out of contention. This strategy makes sense IMO.

[AI4]

I can see having a high-priced payroll to acquiring younger assets, if and when the team falls out of contention. This strategy makes sense IMO.

I believe that this is the plan. Contend or if we fall out have pieces we can sell off. It's a win-win situation.

[elements1985]

I believe that this is the plan. Contend or if we fall out have pieces we can sell off. It's a win-win situation.

Conceptually it makes sense, but which of these F/A signings would command legitimate specs at the deadline? The relievers? And would they even get fair value in minor league talent, given the money they've shelled out for some signings?

If the team's going to trade assets for young players, it makes more sense to ship off the bigger names out on the roster (if and when the time comes) IMO.

[bagwell368]

Conceptually it makes sense, but which of these F/A signings would command legitimate specs at the deadline? The relievers? And would they even get fair value in minor league talent, given the money they've shelled out for some signings?

If the team's going to trade assets for young players, it makes more sense to ship off the bigger names out on the roster (if and when the time comes) IMO.

It's hard to tell until we get there.

In some cases like low cost pen guys, we could realize a nice spec. Other cases like say Victorino in '15, we might get little due to the cost/benefit, OTOH we would have gotten something like 5/6 of his value (by calendar at least)... dealing say Hanrahan at the deadline - what does that mean? Was he great, OK, bad? I don't know, but if he's good someone will pay, but, we may not want to sell that one if so.

It's not an exact science by any means.

[ccspence8]

Second most improved? Hell no.

We signed Victorino who is going to be a bust. Let Ross go. Signed Dempster who is pretty much present day Beckett without the attitude. As much as I like Ellsbury, we needed to trade him for SP. Napoli is supposed to be the power hitter in our lineup...Stephen Drew hasn't been good or healthy but got a 9.5M deal. Didn't sign a true 1B. We have four catchers on the roster so that revolving door will keep moving. Didnt even attempt to talk to Youkilis who could now play 1B and with Bobby V gone, no problems. Signed Jonny Gomes to money he didnt deserve as a 4th OF who can't field.

The only decent moves were signing Napoli and trading for Hanrahan. I didn't see us add an quality cheap moves. And I dont see us competing this season.

I understand we have so much talent coming up in the next 1-3 years but some of these signings are completely boneheaded. Unless Lester bounces back this team doesn't have an ace, and unless Middlebrooks is the next David Wright we don't have a true #3 hitter.

[bagwell368]

Second most improved? Hell no.

We signed Victorino who is going to be a bust.

Based on what?

Signed Dempster who is pretty much present day Beckett without the attitude.

How do you figure?

Dempster rWAR since the start of 2008: 14.4
Beckett rWAR since the start of 2008: 12.9

As much as I like Ellsbury, we needed to trade him for SP.

Why would any team trade a decent SP for a guy with one year of control that is very slow to get back from injury, that won't sign an extension?

Napoli is supposed to be the power hitter in our lineup...

Pretty sure when this poll was taken, Napoli was supposed to have been signed. BTW, what about Ortiz and WMB?

SWe have four catchers on the roster so that revolving door will keep moving.

What does that mean? You think the moves are done?

Didnt even attempt to talk to Youkilis who could now play 1B and with Bobby V gone, no problems.

Youkilis was the most hated Sox by his teammates in a long time, he was also disliked by the FO. The NYY signed him to a ridiculous contract, why should we have gotten involved in that?

I understand we have so much talent coming up in the next 1-3 years but some of these signings are completely boneheaded. Unless Lester bounces back this team doesn't have an ace, and unless Middlebrooks is the next David Wright we don't have a true #3 hitter.

Given that we are not trading specs and the FA market sucked and was over priced, what would you have done better. I think BC did a fine job so far given the circumstances, and I'm fine with not making the playoffs in 2013.

[SirHizz]

Don't forget, if we are 9 games out of the 2nd WC at the deadline a lot of these guys will be dealt off - for specs. So we'll in effect take what we have the most of to spare - cash - translate it to FA's - and then re-translate that to specs which will only make the 2015-2016 rebirth as a young team that much stronger and more sure. This sell off can also be done in 2014 and 2015 to some extent as well.

I'd be happy to go 80-82 this year and 83-79 next year if we could win 90+ in 5 of the following 7 seasons.

Remains to be seen, I'd say. Selling off pieces is easier said than done. We knew last year in June/July that we are not a true contending team, but Ben failed to cash in on Ross and Ellsbury. I imagine we could have gotten a nice package from the Rangers for 1 1/2 years of Ellsbury. And now we have to let go of Ross for nothing (!) and Ellsbury likely for just a pick or a lesser return at the DL.
Especially the Ross non-move was mind-boggling.

And of course you take 1-2 bad years if that leads us back to 90+ wins and in contention, but you make it sound like our current approach gives us a guarantee of that. It's tough to bank on prospects becoming franchise-players. Remember, when guys like Bogaerts, JBJ and Webster/Barnes are ready, there's another wave of players likely gone...Lester, Ortiz, just to name a few. So you could argue they need to be replaced just to keep the status quo (which is - as of right now - a middle-of-the-pack team...)

Who is supposed to be our ace in 2-3 years? Who is supposed to be our #3-#4 punch then?

[taffi101]

Second most improved? Hell no.

We signed Victorino who is going to be a bust. Let Ross go. Signed Dempster who is pretty much present day Beckett without the attitude. As much as I like Ellsbury, we needed to trade him for SP. Napoli is supposed to be the power hitter in our lineup...Stephen Drew hasn't been good or healthy but got a 9.5M deal. Didn't sign a true 1B. We have four catchers on the roster so that revolving door will keep moving. Didnt even attempt to talk to Youkilis who could now play 1B and with Bobby V gone, no problems. Signed Jonny Gomes to money he didnt deserve as a 4th OF who can't field.

The only decent moves were signing Napoli and trading for Hanrahan. I didn't see us add an quality cheap moves. And I dont see us competing this season.

I understand we have so much talent coming up in the next 1-3 years but some of these signings are completely boneheaded. Unless Lester bounces back this team doesn't have an ace, and unless Middlebrooks is the next David Wright we don't have a true #3 hitter.

I'm actually quite content with what Ben has done to this point. He could have just tanked it not done anything. Would you prefer getting stuck with another massive contract by way of Hamilton or Greinke, who both would have come with baggage and questions?

Ben inherited Theo's mess, and it will take more than a season to put his stamp on the team.

You've questioned all his decisions up until this point with the exception of Napoli and Hanrahan?

1) Napoli still hasn't been officially signed, so there should be some bells and whistles there.

2) Hanrahan doesn't come without some worry either. His physical conditioning has been brought up in years past, as well as his control from last season.

Youkilis? come on bud..........

[taffi101]

Remains to be seen, I'd say. Selling off pieces is easier said than done. We knew last year in June/July that we are not a true contending team, but Ben failed to cash in on Ross and Ellsbury. I imagine we could have gotten a nice package from the Rangers for 1 1/2 years of Ellsbury. And now we have to let go of Ross for nothing (!) and Ellsbury likely for just a pick or a lesser return at the DL.
Especially the Ross non-move was mind-boggling.

Not trading Ross at the deadline was little perplexing to me as well. I don't remember how far back we were from a WC spot, but I don't believe we were too close.

Ellsbury I really don't think had a lot of value, and I think any GM would have tried to buy as low as possible on him, as I believe is still the case.

I would guess most GM's would love to have him, but not at the probable 2011 asking price.

Ellsbury's value, because of the injuries and one great year, will continue to be a point of contention up until he leaves.............

[bagwell368]

Remains to be seen, I'd say. Selling off pieces is easier said than done. We knew last year in June/July that we are not a true contending team, but Ben failed to cash in on Ross and Ellsbury. I imagine we could have gotten a nice package from the Rangers for 1 1/2 years of Ellsbury. And now we have to let go of Ross for nothing (!) and Ellsbury likely for just a pick or a lesser return at the DL.
Especially the Ross non-move was mind-boggling.

But the fact the Sox failed to act on Ross doesn't mean the strategy won't work this year. Of course it cannot work perfectly, with injuries and declines mixed in. But even if we cash in 40% of everyone we control now in '13-'15 for specs, its a way to translate $ into specs, and nobody should ever think that would work at 100% efficiency.

And of course you take 1-2 bad years if that leads us back to 90+ wins and in contention, but you make it sound like our current approach gives us a guarantee of that.

Nothing is a guarantee. I just guarantee if we spent all our money and most of our specs to shoot for a WC in '13 and '14, that '15-'19 would be worse for us, than doing it the way they are doing it. That still doesn't promise the playoffs every year of course, just a better chance to be better.

It's tough to bank on prospects becoming franchise-players.

They don't need to be. If in 2016 3 of our 5 SP's and 5 of our 9 every day players are pre-arb/in-house and a mix of average to above average players, with one All Star in the mix, we can buy all of the missing pieces - if two of them are All Stars - I'd say the team is pretty good.

Remember, when guys like Bogaerts, JBJ and Webster/Barnes are ready, there's another wave of players likely gone...Lester, Ortiz, just to name a few. So you could argue they need to be replaced just to keep the status quo (which is - as of right now - a middle-of-the-pack team...)

But as I've said a bunch of times - you'll know far better what you'll need in 2016 for the 2016-2019 period than you will in this off season. Buying up names like Hamilton and Grienke is no sure way to success in '13 and '14, but it is a way to a bloated/aging inferior set of vet players in '15-'16.

Who is supposed to be our ace in 2-3 years? Who is supposed to be our #3-#4 punch then?

Why do we have to know now? The price to have a shot at this answer in this off season was off the charts. You can't possibly believe to obtain this answer (and I maintain you still would not have all of it) you would fill up on players with warning/danger signs all over them for ridiculous money?

[Nomar]

Second most improved? Hell no.

We signed Victorino who is going to be a bust. Let Ross go. Signed Dempster who is pretty much present day Beckett without the attitude. As much as I like Ellsbury, we needed to trade him for SP. Napoli is supposed to be the power hitter in our lineup...Stephen Drew hasn't been good or healthy but got a 9.5M deal. Didn't sign a true 1B. We have four catchers on the roster so that revolving door will keep moving. Didnt even attempt to talk to Youkilis who could now play 1B and with Bobby V gone, no problems. Signed Jonny Gomes to money he didnt deserve as a 4th OF who can't field.

The only decent moves were signing Napoli and trading for Hanrahan. I didn't see us add an quality cheap moves. And I dont see us competing this season.

I understand we have so much talent coming up in the next 1-3 years but some of these signings are completely boneheaded. Unless Lester bounces back this team doesn't have an ace, and unless Middlebrooks is the next David Wright we don't have a true #3 hitter.

Oh boy

[MoVaughnsLunch]

I thought this fiscal cliff might be a bit stressful to some people