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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    And because I appreciated all that hard work, I made a point of reading every word of it before I responded.

    Excellent point about Hairston wanting 3 years. I was unaware of that demand. A guy like Hairston has to be brought in year to year. Heck, part of me is just waiting for him to test positive anyway. He did things at the plate these last two seasons he hadn't done at anytime in his career. Have to laugh. It wasn't too long ago when mine was the loudest voice in this forum calling for his release since he was either striking out or dropping fly balls.

    Next thing I know he's turned into a poor man's Babe Ruth, especially against lefties. I'm hard-pressed to remember anyone turning around like that. Still, I thought it incumbent upon Sandy to resign him considering the state of the rest of our outfield. But if the demand is 3 years, then I agree: Waiting him out or even bringing in an APH is the right move.

    You can draw an analogy to Luis Castillo who was brought in toward the end of the 2007 season to help sure up second base. After the season, this gimp was signed to 4 years. Made no sense to me at the time. Later i heard they were afraid another team was going to sign him, I think the Astros. The answer of course would have been to wish the Astros luck, sign an APH, and wait for a better, younger option. So I concede your point on Hairston.

    Now, why should I think that maybe Sandy was brought in to build the East Coast version of the Oakland A's, especially since the Wilpons historically always spent a lot of money? Because when they were spending money, they were backed by Bernie Madoff's wishing well. Whatever they tossed in, they got 18 percent more. As far as they were concerned, they were spending Monopoly money.Everyone thought the big issue was how much the Mets would have to pay after being sued by Irving Picard. The bigger concern was how would the Mets operate without those guaranteed 18-percent returns. I believe that's what we're finding out now.

    Again to your point, the David Wright signing would run contrary to my assertion about the second coming of Moneyball. But imagine the uproar if both Wright AND Dickey were traded. The organization would have taken a hit from its fan base from which it would have taken a miracle to recover. Nothing short of a championship run within the few seasons would have saved them. The media would have killed them and no one would buy their tickets.

    Sure, signing him was also the right move but so was either trading or re-signing Reyes. Did Sandy have a temporary bout with Alzheimer's in the Reyes debacle or was he worried about taking a hit by trading a potential batting title winner mid season, the same hit he was concerned about if he didn't re-sign Wright?

    See, he could save face, somewhat, by saying that while he wanted Reyes all along (B-crap), his demands were just too rich for his blood. There was no face to be saved by not ponying up on David Wright.

    Sure, it's not out of the realm of possibility that both those moves were made independently for sound baseball reasons. But for the time being, I remain skeptical.

    While I like the Dickey trade, I still want to see what's going to happen next. A lot of people are making analogies to the Mets in the early 80s, bringing in young talent and then finishing it off with expensive veterans like Keith and Gary.

    Let's see if the Sandy Wilpons will bring in expensive veterans to put us over the top, and let's see if the young talent they've brought in are extended after they become eligible to hit the open market.

    Only when that happens will i be convinced it's all about winning.
    Fair enough...

    But, not signing Scott Hairston or Cody Ross this offseason isn't the tell tail sign of this team not having winning as the main goal (especially when both guys are asking for 3 years).

    I agree though...they need to spend eventually and if they don't I will be pissed.

    However, I just don't think this is the right time nor do I think the right players are out there for us to sign.

    The 2014 offseason will in all likely hood be the offseason where we get an idea of what direction this team is heading in...and if that direction is a path toward long term competitiveness...spending will be a part of the equation...not for stop gaps like Ross or Hairston, but for players that can make a serious impact in the short term as well as the long term.

    The only thing worse than not spending any money in free agency is spending money on the wrong players at the wrong time for the wrong deals.

    During the 2014 offseason, their will be plenty of legitimate options out there. I'll make my conclusions then, but for now, I am happy with the young talent that has been acquired and is on the horizon.

    This is a step in the right direction. Will they make the next step? I don't know...I can't answer that right now.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 12-20-2012 at 11:34 PM.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Fair enough...

    But, not signing Scott Hairston or Cody Ross this offseason isn't the tell tail sign of this team not having winning as the main goal (especially when both guys are asking for 3 years).

    I agree though...they need to spend eventually and if they don't I will be pissed.

    However, I just don't think this is the right time nor do I think the right players are out there for us to sign.

    The 2014 offseason will in all likely hood be the offseason where we get an idea of what direction this team is heading in...and if that direction is a path toward long term competitiveness...spending will be a part of the equation...not for stop gaps like Ross or Hairston, but for players that can make a serious impact in the short term as well as the long term.

    The only thing worse than not spending any money in free agency is spending money on the wrong players at the wrong time for the wrong deals.

    During the 2014 offseason, their will be plenty of legitimate options out there. I'll make my conclusions then, but for now, I am happy with the young talent that has been acquired and is on the horizon.

    This is a step in the right direction. Will they make the next step? I don't know...I can't answer that right now.
    Yeah. Any moves they don't make this season isn't indicative of anything other than the fact that this season, plain and simple, isn't the time to spend money.

    We won't know one way or the other until they are in a position where spending money makes sense.

    But I'm still having a hard time wrapping my arms around the fact that in two successive seasons, we got rid of a batting title winner and a Cy Young Award winner. You can debate each of those moves individually on the micro level but you can't tell me that this team wouldn't be closer to a championship right now with RA Dickey and Jose Reyes still playing for us.

    I'd also be lying to you if i said i wasn't excited at the idea that we now have d'Arnaud in our organization. But to draw an analogy, d'Arnaud is to catching what Reyes is to shortstop. The difference of course is that d'Arnaud comes much cheaper and we also got rid of another very expensive player to get him.

    So that alone doesn't sit well in my stomach.

    Still, it could work your way too. They could develop the kids and then bring in the expensive veterans to put us over the top.

    But will they?

    See my signature.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Yeah. Any moves they don't make this season isn't indicative of anything other than the fact that this season, plain and simple, isn't the time to spend money.

    We won't know one way or the other until they are in a position where spending money makes sense.

    But I'm still having a hard time wrapping my arms around the fact that in two successive seasons, we got rid of a batting title winner and a Cy Young Award winner. You can debate each of those moves individually on the micro level but you can't tell me that this team wouldn't be closer to a championship right now with RA Dickey and Jose Reyes still playing for us.

    I'd also be lying to you if i said i wasn't excited at the idea that we now have d'Arnaud in our organization. But to draw an analogy, d'Arnaud is to catching what Reyes is to shortstop. The difference of course is that d'Arnaud comes much cheaper and we also got rid of another very expensive player to get him.

    So that alone doesn't sit well in my stomach.

    Still, it could work your way too. They could develop the kids and then bring in the expensive veterans to put us over the top.

    But will they?

    See my signature.
    Well, as far as not bringing back a batting champion and Cy Young winner in back to back seasons...I think you absolutely have to separate those two instances.

    Sandy botched the Reyes situation. He should have either been signed long term or traded for prospects. I have no way of defending the idea of letting him walk for nothing. I think Sandy knows he messed that one up. I am not defending this either. Simply letting Reyes go and getting nothing significant in return was a huge mistake. It annoys me just to think about how the front office totally botched this situation. It is indeed frustrating.

    The Dickey situation was completely different. We sold at the highest possible time on a guy whose value couldn't be higher. We also traded from a strength to get younger and fill a very scarce position as well. It made complete sense to take the course of action that we took.

    But, the most factual thing I can say in all of this...in response to how we let these guys go, is very simple IMO: We won 77 games with our batting champion and we won 74 games with our Cy Young winner.

    I don't think we would have let either of these guys go if we were close to the playoffs in either of these two seasons. When you aren't winning enough games to compete late in September, you need to either buy more talent or sell the talent to get younger and live to fight another day.

    The Reyes debacle was just that...a debacle. The Dickey situation was handled correctly in the grand scheme of things. You must separate these two situations.

    To be completely honest, I think that Sandy messed up the whole Reyes situation because he thought that we had a chance to compete with Reyes, and he even was considering signing Reyes long-term during the trade deadline when the Reyes rumors were swirling. I think Sandy may have simply changed his mind when the time came to pony up the money for Reyes. I'm not defending anyone here, but I think there are baseball reasons for why Reyes was not traded nor signed either...even if those baseball reasons were flawed.

    I guess I just have a little more faith in the intentions of our front office, and specifically in Sandy Alderson than you do.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 12-21-2012 at 12:39 AM.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  4. #64
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    To get back on topic... Johan Santana is our #1.
    #oneatatime

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Sandy botched the Reyes situation. He should have either been signed long term or traded for prospects. I have no way of defending the idea of letting him walk for nothing. I think Sandy knows he messed that one up. I am not defending this either. Simply letting Reyes go and getting nothing significant in return was a huge mistake. It annoys me just to think about how the front office totally botched this situation. It is indeed frustrating.
    I listened to a podcast with Toby Hyde where he talked about the Reyes situation. He did agree that it could have been handled better, but he also said that with Jose Reyes being injured for most of July and the fact that in 2009 he only played 36 games and in 2010 had a big down year that it is very likely teams were not interested in him at the deadline.

    Then he also used that same scenario for the Mets during contract talks. He said that the Mets probably thought they could get him for 80 million dollars (they didn't want to go higher) and the Mets didn't think the Marlins would have pffered as much as they did. He was basing this off of no interests during the trade deadline. He also said with Reyes price the bidding was only between the Mets and Marlins and he thinks all other teams were scared off because of the 2009 injury, the 2010 down year, and the injury around the trade deadline in 2011.

  6. #66
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    SA rolled the dice on Reyes bit. Some fans predicted an aggressive market for him, but it really wasn't. The Marlins decided to go for broke, and even with a new stadium it was hard to predict their interest in Jose since they had HR at SS. Remove the Marlins from the picture and you are probably left with a scenario where yhe Mrta could have been competitive bidders. There were other factors that contributed to keeping Reyes -- such as trying to win games for ghe fan base that purchased season ticket packages. It was a calculated risk that didn't play itself out well.

    Santana is #1. Does being #1 even matter? Teams rarely adjust yheir rotations to matchup their top pitchers anymore. Seaver vs. Carlton used to be a tradition you could count on 3 to 4 times a year. Nowadays, pitching matchups dont seem as relevant.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  7. #67
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    The feeling I got was the Mets were terrified that if a real offer was tendered to Reyes he might accept and then they'd have to pay him. So they never even made him an offer.

    As for the roster and the Wilpons intentions, what you see is what you get. They're not making an effort and refuse to spend a cent. It's weird how instead of admitting the obvious some act like this situation is a mess of tea leaves they need to try to read.

    The only pitcher who currently has the stuff to be a number 1 is Harvey. We'll see how he does in a larger sample size. The others can be solid or better if healthy. Considering how Santana and Gee ended the season that's a big if.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    SA rolled the dice on Reyes bit. Some fans predicted an aggressive market for him, but it really wasn't. The Marlins decided to go for broke, and even with a new stadium it was hard to predict their interest in Jose since they had HR at SS. Remove the Marlins from the picture and you are probably left with a scenario where yhe Mrta could have been competitive bidders. There were other factors that contributed to keeping Reyes -- such as trying to win games for ghe fan base that purchased season ticket packages. It was a calculated risk that didn't play itself out well.

    Santana is #1. Does being #1 even matter? Teams rarely adjust yheir rotations to matchup their top pitchers anymore. Seaver vs. Carlton used to be a tradition you could count on 3 to 4 times a year. Nowadays, pitching matchups dont seem as relevant.


    He didn't roll the dice at all, he completely blew it, only one team needed to emerge to beat the Mets, that's not a strategy, that's blindly walking into an ambush.

    Calculated risk?

    LOL!!!

    A 12 year old could have seen the flaw in this, if you're not willing to offer a contract, then you're probably not going to resign the player.

    The made sure they got DW because they had too, they would have had cred and no fan base for a decade otherwise. Jose was thrown on to the short term bonfire that kept the team in Coupon hands for another year.

    That's what happened, there's no great strategy from SA, just short-termism and idiocy from all involved.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    He didn't roll the dice at all, he completely blew it, only one team needed to emerge to beat the Mets, that's not a strategy, that's blindly walking into an ambush.

    Calculated risk?


    LOL!!!

    A 12 year old could have seen the flaw in this, if you're not willing to offer a contract, then you're probably not going to resign the player.

    The made sure they got DW because they had too, they would have had cred and no fan base for a decade otherwise. Jose was thrown on to the short term bonfire that kept the team in Coupon hands for another year.

    That's what happened, there's no great strategy from SA, just short-termism and idiocy from all involved.
    Yes. A calculated risk, meaning that he knew he stood a chance to lose Reyes. Do you think he did not? Alderson has been in professional baseball for about 30 years. Hard to imagine he did not know that. Therefore, it was a calculated risk.

    You even used the word, "probable" as in probability. Meaning that there was a chance Reyes might stay. Good job on recognizing that. SA realized that keeping Reyes was risky, but he weighed the factors and took a calculated risk. Part of that was a willingness to accept losing Jose. That was a decision he made, and part of his calculation.
    Last edited by Dugmet; 12-24-2012 at 07:10 PM.
    "The 90 wins is about challenge. It's about changing the conversation. It's about framing questions for ourselves as to how we get there. So I stand by the notion that we need to get better, and in doing so we need to set concrete goals for ourselves so that we have sort of specific conversations among ourselves about how we're going to get there." -- Mr. Alderson

  10. #70
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    Harvey could be our best pitcher this yr, or Niese...... but Santana will start opening day if he's healthy.

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