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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    yup.


    You have good controllable assets and some good win-now caliber players too.

    The Jays are set to win now and in the future, but the farm system will need to be focused again starting now.

    They'll need a good draft this year to get it started. Otherwise the team will have some holes that will have to be addressed in 3-4 years. But they should be relevant for awhile.

    But the farm is weak at this moment. I doubt AA let's that continue for long.
    our low levels are stocked with high upside young talent. with a couple of break out seasons our system could suprise.

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    You're not even addressing anything that I've said. You're just bringing up the same tired argument filled with generalizations and false assumptions that got you into this debate in the first place.
    Because you don't seem to understand why we had to make this deal.

    You would rather hang on to guys who can't help us win now, which the Jays are obviously trying to do, instead of adding one of the best starting pitchers in the game? Even if we didn't receive fair value it's a trade we needed to make.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    Because you don't seem to understand why we had to make this deal.

    You would rather hang on to guys who can't help us win now, which the Jays are obviously trying to do, instead of adding one of the best starting pitchers in the game? Even if we didn't receive fair value it's a trade we needed to make.
    Why do you have to win now and not always and be sustainably good?

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    AA is as good as anyone at assembling assets, and he has done a great job in the time he has been in Toronto no question.

    But the farm is rather weak and not deep at all.

    It's a ton of C+ caliber prospects.

    Sickels 2013 report only has 7 B caliber prospects, 3 of which are B- and no A's, and then 12 C+ caliber prospects.

    That's rather weak when compared to the rest of the farm systems in baseball.

    Outside of a few young arms, there isn't much to be excited about right now in the Jays system.

    I'd say it's a bottom 10 system as of today and worst in the AL East, but AA will fix that over the next two years again.
    I wouldn't disagree with you saying we're in the bottom ten. That being said we have a lot of pieces at A and AA that can develop. I just don't think our farm system is in trouble. We're lacking infield depth but that's about it. I too have faith AA will find some top-level prospects.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    Because you don't seem to understand why we had to make this deal.

    You would rather hang on to guys who can't help us win now, which the Jays are obviously trying to do, instead of adding one of the best starting pitchers in the game? Even if we didn't receive fair value it's a trade we needed to make.
    Again you're making a generalization. I have told you numerous times that I don't have a problem with the Blue Jays (or any team) trading any prospect or player on the roster. My problem with this deal wasn't that they're trying to trade prospect(s) for a veteran. It was the specific pieces used in the deal didn't add up equally or better in the Blue Jays favor.

    You're making a rebuttal to an argument that I'm not making. I'm not saying the Blue Jays need to operate like the Tampa Bay Rays (although I don't see what's so bad about that) where they perpetually stockpile young controllable high ceiling assets. I'm simply saying that in any deal they make, whether it be to acquire veterans or prospects, don't overpay in either direction.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    I wouldn't disagree with you saying we're in the bottom ten. That being said we have a lot of pieces at A and AA that can develop. I just don't think our farm system is in trouble. We're lacking infield depth but that's about it. I too have faith AA will find some top-level prospects.
    And in a year, after some of those guys have shown some promise to everyone, the farm system will move up in rank rather quickly.

    It isn't a death sentence.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Why do you have to win now and not always and be sustainably good?
    Can't we have our cake and eat it too?
    The Jays are not in trouble. Our farm system isn't is in as much trouble as people make it out to be. We have a GM who is intelligent and makes the right moves for this team on every level. Like you said, AA will acquire good prospects. The next five years look very good for us. We have enough time.

    The cards have a very good system. I'm guessing you're a fan with the pic as your avatar. I believe they have been able to be sustainably good. They've brought up a lot of players from their farm system and for the most part they have succeeded. Great FA signings. It's all about your personnel running your team. I think we have some good people in Toronto too now.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    Again you're making a generalization. I have told you numerous times that I don't have a problem with the Blue Jays (or any team) trading any prospect or player on the roster. My problem with this deal wasn't that they're trying to trade prospect(s) for a veteran. It was the specific pieces used in the deal didn't add up equally or better in the Blue Jays favor.

    You're making a rebuttal to an argument that I'm not making. I'm not saying the Blue Jays need to operate like the Tampa Bay Rays (although I don't see what's so bad about that) where they perpetually stockpile young controllable high ceiling assets. I'm simply saying that in any deal they make, whether it be to acquire veterans or prospects, don't overpay in either direction.
    The Jays didn't overpay. This trade was very fair considering what direction each team is going in.
    Do you think the Mets should have thrown in Ike Davis or a couple of their top prospects?
    Now that wouldn't have been a fair trade.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    Can't we have our cake and eat it too?
    The Jays are not in trouble. Our farm system isn't is in as much trouble as people make it out to be. We have a GM who is intelligent and makes the right moves for this team on every level. Like you said, AA will acquire good prospects. The next five years look very good for us. We have enough time.

    The cards have a very good system. I'm guessing you're a fan with the pic as your avatar. I believe they have been able to be sustainably good. They've brought up a lot of players from their farm system and for the most part they have succeeded. Great FA signings. It's all about your personnel running your team. I think we have some good people in Toronto too now.
    I am a Cards fan yes.

    But they haven't really done any FA signings.

    Other than Chris Carpenter on a small signing as an injury plagued player, we have avoided the free agent route and basically everyone comes to the Cardinals via development or trade.

    Our system today is in thanks to Jeff Luhnow, but he left for Houston. So hopefully that trend continues today, but it's not certain.

    I trust AA. And I like this move for the Jays. But the system is kind of weak today. But not without it's potential. Hell you could have 30 B level prospects, and have 3 of them pan out the way you want, or you could have 7, and have 3 of them pan out. But it's sort of depleted overall right now. But you have controllable assets, and other than a weak first base position (in my view) you don't have any holes any longer on the major league roster, and every position has a solution for a few more years currently. So that gives you plenty of time to rebuild/build up the system.

    The Jays will be fine.

    I said from 09-11 that the Jays and Rays would be the two best teams in the AL East in 2014. I still believe that will happen.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    The Jays didn't overpay. This trade was very fair considering what direction each team is going in.
    Do you think the Mets should have thrown in Ike Davis or a couple of their top prospects?
    Now that wouldn't have been a fair trade.
    I've been saying giving up both D'Arnaud and Syndergaard was too much. I'm not suggesting alternatives, I'm just judging the actual trade that happened.

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    I've been saying giving up both D'Arnaud and Syndergaard was too much. I'm not suggesting alternatives, I'm just judging the actual trade that happened.
    If you're AA and trying to acquire Dickey, what do you give up for him?

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifted View Post
    If you're AA and trying to acquire Dickey, what do you give up for him?
    I'm not going to start making up random trade scenario's that I'd be on board with because it's irrelevant. I've said that I would not have given up both D'Arnaud and Syndergaard, and that should be enough for you. I was uncomfortable enough with them giving up D'Arnaud and thought they were getting the worst of it when that was the rumour, but when Syndergaard's name was released that was way over the top ridiculous.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    ^ you don't have a fairly deep farm.
    I'll take a team that has a chance to legit win the World Series (yes things need to go right, but every team is like that in the playoffs) over having a great farm.

    How long have the Royals had a great farm?

    Besides I trust AA can build it back up again.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirate View Post
    I'll take a team that has a chance to legit win the World Series (yes things need to go right, but every team is like that in the playoffs) over having a great farm.

    How long have the Royals had a great farm?

    Besides I trust AA can build it back up again.
    The way you phrase it, you make it seem like the options are to have a good major league team or have a good farm system. Teams like the Texas Rangers, St. Louis Cardinals and Tampa Bay Rays have been consistently good the past few years while maintaining above average farm systems.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    The way you phrase it, you make it seem like the options are to have a good major league team or have a good farm system. Teams like the Texas Rangers, St. Louis Cardinals and Tampa Bay Rays have been consistently good the past few years while maintaining above average farm systems.
    Idealy that's what you aim for.

    I'm just talking about teams that have great farms but never seem to go anywhere because of management.

    The Jays farm may be depleted but AA has proven he's capable of building a no farm into one of the best before.

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