Mets & Jays Deal Done (Dickey Signs for 2yrs/25 Million)

[metswon69]

Maybe you're looking at it wrong. By simply dismissing all value in a prospect by saying they're a huge gamble, then you're essentially saying a team could give up any number of prospects since all of them have no value. That's obviously a ridiculous statement to make, so then you have to acknowledge the market value of prospects and you can then move on to evaluating the trade from both sides, rather than one. The Mets got way more value in this trade than the Blue Jays, at the time of the deal. I think all unbiased observers would agree with that. The discussion then becomes; was it worth it for the Blue Jays to overpay in this scenario. As a Blue Jays fan, I strongly disagreed with this trade but I certainly understand why others think it was fine.

This...

[More-Than-Most]

Yeah... how dare they go out and try to win after 20 years of being in the basement.

Awful



Ohhhh.... you're a Phillies fan. Now it makes more sense why you're so butthurt....

You should worry about your own team and awful moves your GM makes, rather than worry about what the Jays do.

How is worrying about my moronic GM gonna help? I know our front office is stupid and have called them on it for years....Its nice when people talk about someone being butthurt when they themselves are the one puter mad enough to attack another teams front office out of nowhere... Lol gotta love this logic from MR cool guy.

End of the day they gave up that much for a 38 year old knuckleball pitcher.... Silly

[LeperMessiah]

Maybe you're looking at it wrong. By simply dismissing all value in a prospect by saying they're a huge gamble, then you're essentially saying a team could give up any number of prospects since all of them have no value. That's obviously a ridiculous statement to make, so then you have to acknowledge the market value of prospects and you can then move on to evaluating the trade from both sides, rather than one. The Mets got way more value in this trade than the Blue Jays, at the time of the deal. I think all unbiased observers would agree with that. The discussion then becomes;But was it worth it for the Blue Jays to overpay in this scenario. As a Blue Jays fan, I strongly disagreed with this trade but I certainly understand why others think it was fine.

No you assume to much, because no matter how much value they may or may not have it's always a bigger risk on the receiving side for taking on unproven talent. I fully accept that bigger risks always reap better rewards. Some prospects will always have more value than the next one- but it does not remove the risk that it might not pan out. It happens all the time because there are many dynamics that can influence your ability to succeed- you know this. Should the Blue jays go on to win a playoff berth and maybe a title than value achieved, because that is the goal of the GM. But you can safely say the Jays chances of achieving their goal is substantially higher than saying the players the mets got will become regular all-stars.

To understand the baseball trade market, you're going to have to acknowledge that prospects have value as potential future contributors.

But you also have to acknowledge that contribution can remain a Potential.

[LeperMessiah]

How is worrying about my moronic GM gonna help? I know our front office is stupid and have called them on it for years....Its nice when people talk about someone being butthurt when they themselves are the one puter mad enough to attack another teams front office out of nowhere... Lol gotta love this logic from MR cool guy.

End of the day they gave up that much for a 38 year old knuckleball pitcher.... Silly

It wont be "gave up a lot" should it end up in success, which has a higher probability, but we're all getting a head of ourselves here.

[LanceUpperCut]

And by the way it wasn't just a Cy Young winner it was one for three years at 10 million a year, easily one of the best bang for your buck deals in the league. For a team that just added about 40 million to pay roll this is a deal you just can't pass up.

[mtf]

No you assume to much, because no matter how much value they may or may not have it's always a bigger risk on the receiving side for taking on unproven talent. I fully accept that bigger risks always reap better rewards. Some prospects will always have more value than the next one- but it does not remove the risk that it might not pan out. It happens all the time because there are many dynamics that can influence your ability to succeed- you know this.

But you also have to acknowledge that contribution can remain a Potential.

You really need to change your perspective to understand the reality of the situation.

I've never said prospects never bust. To do so would be ignorant. To say a prospect can bust is irrelevant because when you assess their value on the trade market, you do so based on their projections. That is how you ascertain what their value is at the current time.

To say a prospect can bust is so ridiculous because any player can be a bust. Look at Jon Lester, for example. He was one of the best starters in the American League and last year he was a huge flop.

Any player or prospect can have their career take a turn for the worse. They can walk outside and get hit by a bus tomorrow, but it doesn't factor into their value today. See where I'm going with this? Their value is not about predicting the future, but assessing their value currently.

Should the Blue jays go on to win a playoff berth and maybe a title than value achieved, because that is the goal of the GM. But you can safely say the Jays chances of achieving their goal is substantially higher than saying the players the mets got will become regular all-stars.

You're point is irrelevant. No one is saying trading prospects for an all-star is a bad idea in principle. What we're talking about is the exchange of value in this specific trade. We're not making generalizations, we're talking about a specific case. You're the one using generalizations to try to discredit what we're saying.

[metswon69]

It wont be "gave up a lot" should it end up in success, which has a higher probability, but we're all getting a head of ourselves here.

That's a big "IF"....

But the value the Mets got in return doesn't change and the trade is still based on future projections of the specs involved. That's the only way to determine comparable value at the time the trade is being made.

We got a soon to be 24 year old catcher who is the second best catching prospect in baseball and a very good young pitcher with top of the rotation ability.

You are measuring it from a win now perspective and yes in the short term the Blue Jays got the better of the deal, but long term these two guys provide the Mets with a foundation to rebuild and find longer term success in the future.

[Kelly Gruber]

Personally I think both teams made a good trade and in 3-5 years we'll know who "won."

[LeperMessiah]

You really need to change your perspective to understand the reality of the situation.

I've never said prospects never bust. To do so would be ignorant. To say a prospect can bust is irrelevant because when you assess their value on the trade market, you do so based on their projections. That is how you ascertain what their value is at the current time.

To say a prospect can bust is so ridiculous because any player can be a bust. Look at Jon Lester, for example. He was one of the best starters in the American League and last year he was a huge flop.

Any player or prospect can have their career take a turn for the worse. They can walk outside and get hit by a bus tomorrow, but it doesn't factor into their value today. See where I'm going with this? Their value is not about predicting the future, but assessing their value currently.



You're point is irrelevant. No one is saying trading prospects for an all-star is a bad idea in principle. What we're talking about is the exchange of value in this specific trade. We're not making generalizations, we're talking about a specific case. You're the one using generalizations to try to discredit what we're saying.

I'm not discrediting you anything for at all, but until their given their major league chances- what more can you really say? Because that IS a reality of this situation. I agree with you there, and all I am saying the chances of having the over all goal achieved falls more favorably on the blue jays side.

Again that chance of bust falls higher for mets for obvious reasons- which is all I'm debating.

That's a big "IF"....

But the value the Mets got in return doesn't change and the trade is still based on future projections of the specs involved. That's the only way to determine comparable value at the time the trade is being made.

We got a soon to be 24 year old catcher who is the second best catching prospect in baseball and a very good young pitcher with top of the rotation ability.

You are measuring it from a win now perspective and yes in the short term the Blue Jays got the better of the deal, but long term these two guys provide the Mets with a foundation to rebuild and finder longer term success in the future.

Which is fine, because that's what the team is shooting for. But for those players to develop into players would mean we would lose more now with the current cream of players (before the mets and marlins trade). I think it was better to depart if we are in Win now mode.

[mtf]

I'm not discrediting you anything for at all, but until their given their major league chances- what more can you really say? Because that IS a reality of this situation. I agree with you there, and all I am saying the chances of having the over all goal achieved falls more favorably on the blue jays side.

Again that chance of bust falls higher for mets for obvious reasons- which is all I'm debating.

I still don't think we're seeing eye-to-eye on this despite your conciliatory post.

Players and prospects are currency on the trade market. Think about it this way; The Mets got more valuable assets than they give up (even if you don't want to acknowledge it, just play along). What if they turned them around and got fair value for those assets in a trade with a third team, like Justin Upton for example. Then it wouldn't matter what those prospects may turn into individually. That's kind of the point people are trying to make to you.

PS: Don't get distracted and try to analyze the likelihood of the Mets getting Upton for those same prospects, it was merely an hypothetical scenario to illustrate the point being made.

[LanceUpperCut]

I still don't think we're seeing eye-to-eye on this despite your conciliatory post.

Players and prospects are currency on the trade market. Think about it this way; The Mets got more valuable assets than they give up (even if you don't want to acknowledge it, just play along). What if they turned them around and got fair value for those assets in a trade with a third team, like Justin Upton for example. Then it wouldn't matter what those prospects may turn into individually. That's kind of the point people are trying to make to you.

PS: Don't get distracted and try to analyze the likelihood of the Mets getting Upton for those same prospects, it was merely an hypothetical scenario to illustrate the point being made.

I understand what your saying but at the same time that's really just your opinion and I think a guy like Dickey at his salary has tremendous value.

[mtf]

I understand what your saying but at the same time that's really just your opinion and I think a guy like Dickey at his salary has tremendous value.

Actually it's not just my opinion. There were many others who wrote that the Blue Jays overpaid. I haven't dismissed R.A. Dickey's market value at all, unlike many who disagree with me who dismiss the value of all prospects equally. I'm fairly certain that even Alex Anthopoulos acknowledged that he overpaid because the opportunity to make this type of trade at this stage in the development of the team doesn't come along too often. That's a fair assessment.

[Jeffy25]

I haven't commented too much on this deal.


That's mainly because I think it's a good deal for both sides. No clear winner.

The Jays get a great front end, top 20 pitcher in the game for pennies and got him to a team friendly deal that minimizes risk.

The Mets get solid prospects at important positions for one year of Dickey who wasn't going to do them any good this next season any way.

I like the deal for both sides. The Jays gave up some good prospects, but it's okay considering what they got and the position of their team.

So that's why I haven't said much. When a deal is so even, I don't really comment on it

[Toxeryll]

Personally, I think the Jays overpaid but sometimes, you have to overpay if that's what it takes to put you over the top. I think this is the right move for the Jays considering Dickey is the only high caliber pitcher that was available and we can afford $ wise.

[LeperMessiah]

I still don't think we're seeing eye-to-eye on this despite your conciliatory post.

Players and prospects are currency on the trade market. Think about it this way; The Mets got more valuable assets than they give up (even if you don't want to acknowledge it, just play along). What if they turned them around and got fair value for those assets in a trade with a third team, like Justin Upton for example. Then it wouldn't matter what those prospects may turn into individually. That's kind of the point people are trying to make to you.

PS: Don't get distracted and try to analyze the likelihood of the Mets getting Upton for those same prospects, it was merely an hypothetical scenario to illustrate the point being made.

It's a debate of opinion/thoughts so there is no need to snap unnecessarily (not calling you out).

You know what I'm talking about- I'm trying to justify my thinking through this. We gave the mets our top prospects to take on Dickey. The purpose of the trade is to achieve the main goal, which the Jays have a better chance at now then say in however many years it takes them to develop into what they might become. I'm saying this based on how old Bautista or Edwin will be (I'm assuming at this point they are going to be a very significant pieces). Should the goal be achieved (playoff berth maybe a WS) then I believe whatever value was traded away is no longer relevant since that value would not have brought a playoff berth or possible WS today. It's been said many times, time will tell.

dw, I got that.