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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    That people want it to be absolute. Any talk of stronger gun laws are met by a chorus of whines.

    I'm confused, though. Why do we need assault weapons again?
    I'm confused- why don't we look at each constituional right with the same degree of skepticism as we do number 2? Just becasue you don't see the value, or appreciate its meaning or relevancy to your life means nothing to those who do. I know, let's look at this overblown freedom of speech thing. I think people should not be able to say things that might hurt the national security interests of the united states, or their fellow citizens. I think we need to be able to limit the speech of people who want to portray Mohammad in demeaning ways (as I personally define it). These people are going to get others killed through their harmful rhetoric. We can't allow these people to be killed, so that speech should be regulated so it can't offend others, resulting in violence and death.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    Im just giving numbers...Gcol asked about cars as a comparison.
    I supplied exactly why we are failing to properly address this issue.

    The notion of personal responsibility is more important to people then facts, or preventive measures.

    In Cars once we stopped assessing responsibility on PEOPLE being at fault, we saw dramatic changes in auto fatalities.
    PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS AT FAULT.

    saying it was just a bad apple at fault does nothing to mitigate our risk exposure.

    Then we started examining HOW their failures aloowed for death to result.

    roads where unsafe, so we instituted new LAWS as to how a road needed to be surfaced and signed.
    Cars were dangerous so we passed LAWS regarding seat belt, air bags, safety glass, engine firewalls and security so it didnt come flying through the dash and crush you.
    Safety glass so your face wasnt ripped off.

    collapsable steering collumns so you werent impalled.

    These laws didnt change human behaviour one little bit, they made it harder, to wind up with the results we wanted to avoid.
    Just to add to this booster seats are probably the most recent and best example. In states with a booster seat laws covering ages from 6-7 the deaths dropped by 25% from 99 to 2009 when compared to states with no law.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by natelpete View Post
    Of course there is the "if everyone is responsible" argument. The problem is that not everyone is responsible.
    Cool

    So punish the many for the failings of a few

    some people aren't responsible with cell phones, should you have to surrender the one you own?

    some people aren't responsible with alcohol, should you not be allowed the option of an alcoholic beverage if you want one?

    some people aren't responsible with tobacco products and they kill almost half a million people a year so should you not be allowed that option?

    some people aren't responsible with their diets, that causes more disease and death in a year than guns so should you're food choices be regulated?

    I mean I could go on and on with all the stuff that isn't good for us that the government lets go all the time
    Last edited by Randy West; 12-18-2012 at 04:42 PM.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    We have laws

    laws work when those in a society obey them.

    This kid took his mothers firearms, he broke the law. Having an invisible law there didn't stop him he just did what he wanted anyway.
    So then you make better laws, better controls.Ones that have a chance to work.
    Ones that dont focus on Individual responsibility, but deny the ease with which laws are circumvented.

    Counterfiting is illegal.didnt stop people right?
    did we just accept that bad people will get away with bad things, or did we become more inventive ,more effective in preventing it?

    If you want to limit Gun Violence,( and I would argue there are many people who dont really care becasue it hasnt touched their lives)
    that is the only thing that will work.

    Limit access,increase restriction.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    Cool

    So punish the many for the failings of a few
    I'm not a terrorist. Why do I have to go through security at the airport? Quit punishing me!!!
    lol nothing matters

  6. #201
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    I think the real question here is,why do Americans have such massive hard-ons for guns?

    I mean, I've been hunting, I've been to the range, I've taken gun safety classes, and I think that guns can be useful in the hands of responsible individuals. The problem is that they seem to, all too easily, end up in the hands of irresponsible people. Why is it so hard for people to realize that it might be a good idea to make some changes to our current laws.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephkyle7 View Post
    So then you make better laws, better controls.Ones that have a chance to work.
    Ones that dont focus on Individual responsibility, but deny the ease with which laws are circumvented.

    Counterfiting is illegal.didnt stop people right?
    did we just accept that bad people will get away with bad things, or did we become more inventive ,more effective in preventing it?

    If you want to limit Gun Violence,( and I would argue there are many people who dont really care becasue it hasnt touched their lives)
    that is the only thing that will work.

    Limit access,increase restriction.
    So increase laws and restrictions that don't work already, got it!
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    I'm confused- why don't we look at each constituional right with the same degree of skepticism as we do number 2? Just becasue you don't see the value, or appreciate its meaning or relevancy to your life means nothing to those who do. I know, let's look at this overblown freedom of speech thing. I think people should not be able to say things that might hurt the national security interests of the united states, or their fellow citizens. I think we need to be able to limit the speech of people who want to portray Mohammad in demeaning ways (as I personally define it). These people are going to get others killed through their harmful rhetoric. We can't allow these people to be killed, so that speech should be regulated so it can't offend others, resulting in violence and death.
    Probably because the courts have long went through their battles for each constitutional right and there is a precedent set. The right to bear arms doesn't say ALL ARMS. Probably the best universal gun we have as a nation is a shot gun. You load slugs and shoot far away and but a scope on that bad boy or you can get some double buck and blow the door down.

    Shot guns are being banned simply because they justify their practical use in hunting alone.

    The precendent for bearing arms in the courts has been set. The type of arms is in question now. For freedom of speech the precendent has been set and upheld many times in many formats. The same can't be said for all guns.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by natelpete View Post
    I think the real question here is,why do Americans have such massive hard-ons for guns?

    I mean, I've been hunting, I've been to the range, I've taken gun safety classes, and I think that guns can be useful in the hands of responsible individuals. The problem is that they seem to, all too easily, end up in the hands of irresponsible people. Why is it so hard for people to realize that it might be a good idea to make some changes to our current laws.
    You say they "all too easily end up in the hands of irresponsible people" but if that were the case wouldn't we see MORE of this type of thing. There are over 310 million non military firearms in the US so if they all too easily end up in the hands of the wrong people why aren't we experiencing one of these shootings daily or weekly?

    I will tell you why, most gun owners are responsible people and most of them do the right thing.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunkShizzle View Post
    I'm not a terrorist. Why do I have to go through security at the airport? Quit punishing me!!!
    That is right along the same lines as the current conversation I guess.

    But in all honesty you don't have to, you only have to when you want to fly.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    You say they "all too easily end up in the hands of irresponsible people" but if that were the case wouldn't we see MORE of this type of thing. There are over 310 million non military firearms in the US so if they all too easily end up in the hands of the wrong people why aren't we experiencing one of these shootings daily or weekly?

    I will tell you why, most gun owners are responsible people and most of them do the right thing.
    Forgive me if you've stated a different position already, but I read this as the status quo is fine. These massacres are simply the inevitable outcome of a system that otherwise works.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
    lol nothing matters

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy West View Post
    That is right along the same lines as the current conversation I guess.

    But in all honesty you don't have to, you only have to when you want to fly.
    Well you won't have to deal with restrictions on the types of guns you can have, or deal with a more cumbersome process of getting your hands on a gun...unless you want to have a gun.
    lol nothing matters

  13. #208
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    Whoops
    You're talking to me all wrong... It's the wrong tone. You do it again and I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron. Hey, tell me, does your mother sew? BOOM. Get her to sew that!

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunkShizzle View Post
    Well you won't have to deal with restrictions on the types of guns you can have, or deal with a more cumbersome process of getting your hands on a gun...unless you want to have a gun.
    I already have several and went through all the proper procedures to acquire them. They are also locked in a safe that I went through the proper procedures to acquire as well.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunkShizzle View Post
    Forgive me if you've stated a different position already, but I read this as the status quo is fine. These massacres are simply the inevitable outcome of a system that otherwise works.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
    Nope you are correct, would it have been better if he did all the things he did with a pistol? You know those things other than assault rifles/rifles and shotguns that amount to 95% of the gun related homicides?

    Do you think if he didn't have access to that rifle but had access to those pistols the outcome would have been any different?
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt


    There's no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders.
    -Barack "drone" Obama, 11/18/2012

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