Mike Adams

[TheRuckus]

That's because they don't know the game of baseball, I'd be shocked to see anyone but Young bat 5th to start the season. Would be willing to bet money that he produces more out of that spot than Pence and Werth did, minus the power numbers. Completely agree with everything you said, having him hit there will help Howard immensely.

Uh...isn't that a pretty big aspect of "production," especially for a guy hitting the middle of the lineup?

That's like saying that for the year Carlos Silva walked like 10 dudes in a full season, he was better than Pedro Martinez in his prime, minus the hits given up.

[Philsforever]

Uh...isn't that a pretty big aspect of "production," especially for a guy hitting the middle of the lineup?

That's like saying that for the year Carlos Silva walked like 10 dudes in a full season, he was better than Pedro Martinez in his prime, minus the hits given up.

[phillyeaglesman]

Uh...isn't that a pretty big aspect of "production," especially for a guy hitting the middle of the lineup?

That's like saying that for the year Carlos Silva walked like 10 dudes in a full season, he was better than Pedro Martinez in his prime, minus the hits given up.

ummm.....no. doesn't matter how the run gets driven in; only matters that it counts on the board.

someone that had 12 HR, 50 R, and 100 RBI was just as productive as someone who had 40 HR, 50 R, and 100 RBI.

[TheRuckus]

ummm.....no. doesn't matter how the run gets driven in; only matters that it counts on the board.

someone that had 12 HR, 50 R, and 100 RBI was just as productive as someone who had 40 HR, 50 R, and 100 RBI.

Power isn't just homers. Power is extra bases. If one guy hits .300 with all singles, and one hits .300 with a lot of doubles, the second guy was clearly more productive.

And RBI is a "power number" anyway.

[The A Team]

Also, if we're holding all things equal, the player who hit 40 HR can be said to have been much more productive. There's individual productivity and lineup productivity. In this example, Player B (40 HR) is clearly a much more productive player in the individual sense, however, he also clearly existed in a much weaker lineup than Player A (12 HR).

[phillyeaglesman]

Also, if we're holding all things equal, the player who hit 40 HR can be said to have been much more productive. There's individual productivity and lineup productivity. In this example, Player B (40 HR) is clearly a much more productive player in the individual sense, however, he also clearly existed in a much weaker lineup than Player A (12 HR).

i don't understand why this has to be made more complicated than it is.

productive, in it's literal sense, means that he "produced" runs. only way to produce runs is to score them or drive them in in some way, shape, or form.


if they both scored the same amount of runs (50) and drove in the same amount of runs (100), then they were equally productive. they both brought in the exact same amount of runs for their team.


why does it have to be made more complicated than that?

[The A Team]

Productive has more than one definition. So it is more complicated. Again, let's assume the only difference is in HR and SLG%.

Your definition of productive is technically correct. However, the alternative definition I presented is also technically correct. Furthermore, a team that is trying to make personnel decisions should probably put at least 10 times more weight on the alternative definition than the one you're presenting.

This is why it has to be complicated. The "production" you are referring to is interesting from a fan's perspective but not useful to anyone conducting analysis. Teams shouldn't (and don't) consider how many R/RBI a batter drove in when making decisions.

Many of us on this site prefer to look at production through the eyes of a front office rather than as a fan.

[11MVPPatBurrell]

why does it have to be made more complicated than that?

The argument is that the guy with 12 HR 100 RBI probably had a whole lot more guys on base in front of him than the guy who had 40 HR 100 RBI.

If you prefaced it by saying they both had 114 guys on base and drove in 75 of them... or if you said the 12 HR guy had 35 doubles and the 40 HR guy had 15 doubles.

Just looking at 50/12/100 versus 50/40/100.... everyone will say the 40 HR guy has better productivity potential.

[maxpower]

Wow, if a guy hit 40 HR and only scored 50 runs, he must REALLY suck at base running.

[bringbackfredex]

Uh...isn't that a pretty big aspect of "production," especially for a guy hitting the middle of the lineup?

That's like saying that for the year Carlos Silva walked like 10 dudes in a full season, he was better than Pedro Martinez in his prime, minus the hits given up.

Not really, Werth's last year with us he hit .186 with RISP, and .139 with RISP and 2 outs. Does it really matter that he hit 27 HR's for us in the 5 hole? Pence was a little better in 2012 hitting .251 with RISP, and .232 with RISP and 2 out. Only problem with him was that he finished with a WAR of 0.7, my point is that Young can be just as productive as them in that spot.

Overall I'm a big supporter of how important power is which is why I was always pro-Howard. But it's not a stretch at all to say that a Michael Young who has been very clutch his entire career cannot out produce both of them protecting Howard.

[TheIlladelph16]

Fredex you gotta update that checklist after the acquisition of Adams for the BP

[The A Team]

Wow, if a guy hit 40 HR and only scored 50 runs, he must REALLY suck at base running.

Or he's batting in front of 3 pitchers.