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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    No.

    Ortiz was a first baseman for both Minnesota and Boston. Eventually, with age, he was relegated, and rightfully so, to DH.

    Montero, as a young stud was never groomed into a position. What does that say for your developmental acumen that you can't even teach A KID a position. Ortiz was a later age changeover and correct me if im wrong but Napoli played multiple years as catcher.
    Ortiz is a DH who owns a 1B glove. He is not a 1B. His high water mark for games played at 1B was 75 and that was his first year at age 22. Since then, he rarely plays the field.

    Napoli has rotated between DH, C, and 1B, but he's never caught more than 96 games in a season (that was in 2009) and his 1B numbers suggest that he shouldn't be playing there regularly.

    Did the Twins, Red Sox, and Angels fail to "groom" Ortiz and Napoli to play a position? Or could it be that they have major league bats but not major league gloves? Everyone has their limitations.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Ortiz is a DH who owns a 1B glove. He is not a 1B. His high water mark for games played at 1B was 75 and that was his first year at age 22. Since then, he rarely plays the field.

    Napoli has rotated between DH, C, and 1B, but he's never caught more than 96 games in a season (that was in 2009) and his 1B numbers suggest that he shouldn't be playing there regularly.

    Did the Twins, Red Sox, and Angels fail to "groom" Ortiz and Napoli to play a position? Or could it be that they have major league bats but not major league gloves? Everyone has their limitations.
    By my math 96 is far better than zero. You're telling me that Montero couldn't have been taught a position at such a young age. What does that say for our ability to develop players. If, as you insinuate, Montero was never going to be a. Position player no matter how hard we tried, why then did we sign him? Why then did we hold him out of other blue chip negotiations?

    You can't have it both ways. Either he was NEVER capable of fielding a credible position (in which case management was extremely remiss to initially sign, then hoard him) or management didn't have the skill set/patience to groom him going forward.

    Well.....which is it?

    It's hard to believe we've devolved this arguement to comparing Jesus Motero to David Ortiz.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    By my math 96 is far better than zero. You're telling me that Montero couldn't have been taught a position at such a young age. What does that say for our ability to develop players. If, as you insinuate, Montero was never going to be a. Position player no matter how hard we tried, why then did we sign him? Why then did we hold him out of other blue chip negotiations?

    You can't have it both ways. Either he was NEVER capable of fielding a credible position (in which case management was extremely remiss to initially sign, then hoard him) or management didn't have the skill set/patience to groom him going forward.

    Well.....which is it?

    It's hard to believe we've devolved this arguement to comparing Jesus Motero to David Ortiz.
    In fairness, he was what - 16 years old? - when they signed him. Maybe they thought with experience his catching would improve or he would become athletic enough to play another position. Or maybe they figured at worst he would be DH material. Or maybe they wanted Michael Pineda all along and this was all part of a grand scheme to get him.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Or maybe they wanted Michael Pineda all along and this was all part of a grand scheme to get him.
    Nice.

    Glad you've come to the light my friend.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  5. #95
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSowner View Post
    Funny.
    Leo's Thought Of The Day



    ESPN Reporting CC Rehab Going Well.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    By my math 96 is far better than zero. You're telling me that Montero couldn't have been taught a position at such a young age. What does that say for our ability to develop players. If, as you insinuate, Montero was never going to be a. Position player no matter how hard we tried, why then did we sign him? Why then did we hold him out of other blue chip negotiations?
    What does that say about the Yanks ability? Not a thing. You seem to forget axiom 1, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear (or gold from lead...etc.)

    You have to realize that some players will have a high ceiling with the glove and not the bat and vice versa. You forget, players who can hit will be given every chance possible... players who can field, but not hit well just go away.

    You cannot make someone something that they are NOT. Just like you cannot make a lawyer or politician tell the truth.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    What does that say about the Yanks ability? Not a thing. You seem to forget axiom 1, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear (or gold from lead...etc.)

    You have to realize that some players will have a high ceiling with the glove and not the bat and vice versa. You forget, players who can hit will be given every chance possible... players who can field, but not hit well just go away.

    You cannot make someone something that they are NOT. Just like you cannot make a lawyer or politician tell the truth.
    Funny.

    And scarily true.

    Though if this was the case why insist on hoarding him during elite, blue chip trade talks and then piss him away for second hand scraps if you knew he had no defensive ability going forward. The team was "developing" Montero over a period of many years so it's not like they shouldn't have been able to see the signs coming well beforehand and could've traded him higher than they did.

    As I've said many, many, many times before......poor franchise planning and no long term vision.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  9. #99
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    And yes, I consider Michael Pineda to be second hand scraps no matter how unpopular that opinion might be.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Funny.

    And scarily true.

    Though if this was the case why insist on hoarding him during elite, blue chip trade talks and then piss him away for second hand scraps if you knew he had no defensive ability going forward. The team was "developing" Montero over a period of many years so it's not like they shouldn't have been able to see the signs coming well beforehand and could've traded him higher than they did.

    As I've said many, many, many times before......poor franchise planning and no long term vision.
    Well, that is simple. You need to remember the comment about "guys that can hit will be given every chance possible" Montero can hit. The Yanks hoped that he would finally "get it" defensively. They traded him when they did because if he spent any time at the MLB level behind the dish, the rest of the world would have known fully what they already knew... Montero was NOT going to become a full time catcher. That meant that at the time of the trade, his stock was only going to go down hill.

    Now, at the time of the trade, Pineda was a young, star to be with a yet to reached ceiling... you may consider him as garbage, but I refuse to rate a guy while they are PUP (Physically unable to perform)... yes, his injury may spell the end of his career.. on the other hand, he may come back and pick up where he was in the middle of 2011... I will hold out hope, and let him prove what he has left before I issue any final judgements on the trade (though Montero did not show off any future stardom last season either)

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    Well, that is simple. You need to remember the comment about "guys that can hit will be given every chance possible" Montero can hit. The Yanks hoped that he would finally "get it" defensively. They traded him when they did because if he spent any time at the MLB level behind the dish, the rest of the world would have known fully what they already knew... Montero was NOT going to become a full time catcher. That meant that at the time of the trade, his stock was only going to go down hill.

    Now, at the time of the trade, Pineda was a young, star to be with a yet to reached ceiling... you may consider him as garbage, but I refuse to rate a guy while they are PUP (Physically unable to perform)... yes, his injury may spell the end of his career.. on the other hand, he may come back and pick up where he was in the middle of 2011... I will hold out hope, and let him prove what he has left before I issue any final judgements on the trade (though Montero did not show off any future stardom last season either)
    Pineda was shut down for half a season AND had preexisting medical arm issues, so it's not like injury was a solely after the fact freak accident. Granted, he didn't have this particular injury but he had history nonetheless so it's not like he was a clean, pristine, snow-white resume.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Pineda was shut down for half a season AND had preexisting medical arm issues, so it's not like injury was a solely after the fact freak accident. Granted, he didn't have this particular injury but he had history nonetheless so it's not like he was a clean, pristine, snow-white resume.
    Which season are you talking about? Certainly not 2011 when he made 28 starts.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Which season are you talking about? Certainly not 2011 when he made 28 starts.
    In 2010 Pineda was shut down in the PCL to "avoid arm injury."

    I also believe that Seattle babied him post all sar break in 2011 to "avoid arm injury."

    To be honest I can understand today's mentality of limiting a pitchers workload increase to 30 innings over previous max yearly, but I must wonder aloud if Seattle knew something going into those negotiations.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    In 2010 Pineda was shut down in the PCL to "avoid arm injury."

    I also believe that Seattle babied him post all sar break in 2011 to "avoid arm injury."

    To be honest I can understand today's mentality of limiting a pitchers workload increase to 30 innings over previous max yearly, but I must wonder aloud if Seattle knew something going into those negotiations.
    Pineda missed part of the 2009 season due to injury.

    He came back and pitched the entire 2010 season (11-4, 3.36 ERA in 25 starts) and his K/9 rate was identical to what it had been prior to injury.

    He pitched the entire 2011 season (9-10, 3.74 ERA in 28 starts). With the exception of 4 of those starts, he started every game on either 4 or 5 days rest. In September, they gave him 6 days rest twice and his last start of the season came on 10 days rest.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Pineda missed part of the 2009 season due to injury.

    He came back and pitched the entire 2010 season (11-4, 3.36 ERA in 25 starts) and his K/9 rate was identical to what it had been prior to injury.

    He pitched the entire 2011 season (9-10, 3.74 ERA in 28 starts). With the exception of 4 of those starts, he started every game on either 4 or 5 days rest. In September, they gave him 6 days rest twice and his last start of the season came on 10 days rest.
    Preach boy preach

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