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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Agreed and excellent analysis.

    Just don't expect to come off as too popular round here with that.
    I was never very popular anyway. And thanks. I like your analysis as well.

  2. #77
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    In principle, I believe in what BobShirley is saying. My problem is that we don't have that core of young studs coming out of Triple-A to build on. That amazing dynasty was built around not only Jeter, Mo, Bernie, Jorge, and Pettitte, but Stick Michael and Watson had found some gems like O'Neil and Brosius through the trade market.
    But here's the interesting part. Besides Pettitte, those starting pitching staffs were built around free agent signings and trades.
    It seems that Cashman has the opposite philosophy of that 90's dynasty which is to fill the farm with arms. Arms are too volatile. Yes, develop pitching, but a dynasty is really built around that position player you can count on for ten plus years, i.e. Jeter, Bernie, Jorge. Arms can't be counted on. Sticks can.
    Forget the fact that Pineda was an out of shape slug with bad mechanics. It was a mistake to trade away a young stick who KNOWS HOW TO HIT TO THE OPPOSITE FIELD! That is what has been killing us since Bernie and Paulie were in their primes.
    We've been suffering through mass Giambi-itus and every .300 hitter becomes a .230 pull-to-right maniac.
    We can not win the WS with this team, no matter what the Pollyannas on this forum say.
    I agree with Leo that we should just trade away ALL of our chips and stock the team with young studs.
    It is time to rebuild. But our rebuilding shouldn't take as long as most. In two years we could be ready. If we get a core of young guys we can build around, pepper in our blue chippers who are down in Single-A, then add in a bunch of great free agent signings, we can be contenders again in 2015.
    Providing Cashman doesn't trade away our Monteros for more Pinedas.
    And yes, we should be able to get a haul for Cano during the summer heat of the races.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jango2000 View Post
    In principle, I believe in what BobShirley is saying. My problem is that we don't have that core of young studs coming out of Triple-A to build on. That amazing dynasty was built around not only Jeter, Mo, Bernie, Jorge, and Pettitte, but Stick Michael and Watson had found some gems like O'Neil and Brosius through the trade market.
    But here's the interesting part. Besides Pettitte, those starting pitching staffs were built around free agent signings and trades.
    It seems that Cashman has the opposite philosophy of that 90's dynasty which is to fill the farm with arms. Arms are too volatile. Yes, develop pitching, but a dynasty is really built around that position player you can count on for ten plus years, i.e. Jeter, Bernie, Jorge. Arms can't be counted on. Sticks can.
    Forget the fact that Pineda was an out of shape slug with bad mechanics. It was a mistake to trade away a young stick who KNOWS HOW TO HIT TO THE OPPOSITE FIELD! That is what has been killing us since Bernie and Paulie were in their primes.
    We've been suffering through mass Giambi-itus and every .300 hitter becomes a .230 pull-to-right maniac.
    We can not win the WS with this team, no matter what the Pollyannas on this forum say.
    I agree with Leo that we should just trade away ALL of our chips and stock the team with young studs.
    It is time to rebuild. But our rebuilding shouldn't take as long as most. In two years we could be ready. If we get a core of young guys we can build around, pepper in our blue chippers who are down in Single-A, then add in a bunch of great free agent signings, we can be contenders again in 2015.
    Providing Cashman doesn't trade away our Monteros for more Pinedas.
    And yes, we should be able to get a haul for Cano during the summer heat of the races.
    The Giants have won two of the last three World Series because of pitching, not hitting.

    Montero was a player without a position. Trading him for a pitcher who made the all star team in his first season was justifiable.

    Rebuilding is a great idea, if your team plays in Pittsburgh or Kansas City.

    If we get lucky, two or three of those guys at A and AA will make it as major leaguers. Most minor leaguers - even the highly touted ones - don't cut it at the MLB level for some reason or another (injury, talent, etc.).

  4. #79
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    Slick, your opinion is well respected. And there's no question that the Giants just did it with pitching. And timely hitting.
    I'm just saying you can't rely on pitching as much as hitting and your core needs both.
    Montero wasn't a player without a position. He's a DH/1B/C and there would have been enough at bats for him to carry him through to Tex's eventual retirement.
    As to rebuilding. I don't think we have to do it KC or Pittsburgh style. But we are getting seriously old and its time for a Yankee style reset. Given that we've committed to the 189 and we are going to have a 100 million dollar drain for the next four or five years with A-Rod, Tex, CC, and possibly Cano sinking into decrepitude.
    Unless we forget the 189 and keep feeding the beast, we will be forced into some form of rebuilding.
    Or should we just call it a renovation?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jango2000 View Post
    Slick, your opinion is well respected. And there's no question that the Giants just did it with pitching. And timely hitting.
    I'm just saying you can't rely on pitching as much as hitting and your core needs both.
    Montero wasn't a player without a position. He's a DH/1B/C and there would have been enough at bats for him to carry him through to Tex's eventual retirement.
    As to rebuilding. I don't think we have to do it KC or Pittsburgh style. But we are getting seriously old and its time for a Yankee style reset. Given that we've committed to the 189 and we are going to have a 100 million dollar drain for the next four or five years with A-Rod, Tex, CC, and possibly Cano sinking into decrepitude.
    Unless we forget the 189 and keep feeding the beast, we will be forced into some form of rebuilding.
    Or should we just call it a renovation?
    jango, if I was going to bet on it, I'd bet that the Yankees will get to 189M in 2014 because there's simply too much financial incentive for them not to. That may mean we field a team with some holes or depth issues.

    The good news is that we have a lot of money coming off the books after 2014. I believe we only have about 80-90M committed to 2014 (basically CC, Tex, and A-Rod). That leaves plenty of room for renovation, remodeling, or rebuilding! Maybe by that time, Williams, Sanchez, Heathcott, etc. are still viable prospects and close to being able to contribute, although until these guys have solid AA and AAA numbers behind them, they're pretty much wild cards in my book.

    I would like to see them let Cano walk even though that will not be a popular decision, but I could see the Dodgers making a gargantuan offer to him that he will never live up to, and I'd hate to match (or beat) that offer only to have Cano morph into A-Rod as the years go by and become another albatross of a contract.

    I don't think you will ever see a full fledged "rebuilding" program a la KC or Pittsburgh because the fan base wouldn't stand for it, but as you put it, there may well be some "renovations" going on.

  6. #81
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    Oh and as for the Montero trade, I suggest that the trade stings not because of what we gave up but because of what we didn't get in return. We expected to get a young, #2 or 3 starter and what we got was a guy who has been on the DL since we acquired him. If we'd actually gotten the guy we thought we were getting, I don't know if people would regret the deal as much.

    Montero was never going to displace Tex at 1B, he has never so much as played a single inning in the OF in the minors or the majors so putting him in the OF wasn't an option, and his catching deficiencies are well known. The Mariners are looking for a defensive catcher to split with Jaso, so Montero will probably become a Mike Napoli type - a guy who CAN catch if needed, but is really more suited to DH.

  7. #82
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    Montero is NOT GOOD.

    If Pineda played, the trade was a huge win.

    But he didn't, so it's a loss to this point.
    Leo's Thought Of The Day



    The Ace.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Oh and as for the Montero trade, I suggest that the trade stings not because of what we gave up but because of what we didn't get in return. We expected to get a young, #2 or 3 starter and what we got was a guy who has been on the DL since we acquired him. If we'd actually gotten the guy we thought we were getting, I don't know if people would regret the deal as much.

    Montero was never going to displace Tex at 1B, he has never so much as played a single inning in the OF in the minors or the majors so putting him in the OF wasn't an option, and his catching deficiencies are well known. The Mariners are looking for a defensive catcher to split with Jaso, so Montero will probably become a Mike Napoli type - a guy who CAN catch if needed, but is really more suited to DH.
    Whose fault is it that he wasn't groomed to have a position ready. Where was the longtime franchise vision in that. If Cashman, et al knew this was an issue ahead of time why didn't they unload him for better chips instead of waiting for a guy who experienced a shutdown at such an early point in his career.

    Look, I agree with you that we will get down to the magic number soon but in that we will have a ton of deficiencies in the lineup. Coupled with a bleak FA market, this team has serious issues going forward.

    Every time we've looked for the prospects to rescue us as the face of the future they've gotten hurt, underproduced or been overhyped and pissed away at bad junctures.

    Are we really going to play this game again hoping against hope that Brian Cashmans franchise vision will ride us to the gold. My feeling is that that ship will continue to sink as it has every year we keep coming back to it.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    Whose fault is it that he wasn't groomed to have a position ready. Where was the longtime franchise vision in that. If Cashman, et al knew this was an issue ahead of time why didn't they unload him for better chips instead of waiting for a guy who experienced a shutdown at such an early point in his career.

    Look, I agree with you that we will get down to the magic number soon but in that we will have a ton of deficiencies in the lineup. Coupled with a bleak FA market, this team has serious issues going forward.

    Every time we've looked for the prospects to rescue us as the face of the future they've gotten hurt, underproduced or been overhyped and pissed away at bad junctures.

    Are we really going to play this game again hoping against hope that Brian Cashmans franchise vision will ride us to the gold. My feeling is that that ship will continue to sink as it has every year we keep coming back to it.
    Montero has a position - it's DH. He's as much of a catcher as Napoli is. He's never been and will never been an OF. Maybe one day someone will buy him a 1B glove for Christmas and he will learn how to use it, but that day has yet to come.

    It's not an organizational failure that Montero can't play a position anymore than it's an organizational failure that Napoli or Ortiz can't play positions. These guys are what they are.

  10. #85
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    How about Arod's contract? That was a smart decision....

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeter 2 View Post
    How about Arod's contract? That was a smart decision....
    From A-Rod's perspective, it was a brilliant decision.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by jango2000 View Post
    Slick, your opinion is well respected. And there's no question that the Giants just did it with pitching. And timely hitting.
    I'm just saying you can't rely on pitching as much as hitting and your core needs both.
    Montero wasn't a player without a position. He's a DH/1B/C and there would have been enough at bats for him to carry him through to Tex's eventual retirement.
    As to rebuilding. I don't think we have to do it KC or Pittsburgh style. But we are getting seriously old and its time for a Yankee style reset. Given that we've committed to the 189 and we are going to have a 100 million dollar drain for the next four or five years with A-Rod, Tex, CC, and possibly Cano sinking into decrepitude.
    Unless we forget the 189 and keep feeding the beast, we will be forced into some form of rebuilding.
    Or should we just call it a renovation?
    I have read you last few entries and I have to say that you are correct on a few points... BUT, you miss the "why".

    You talk about how great a job that Micheals and Watson did in the early 90's in building that dominate team that was the NYY in the late 90's, but you fail to admit to why they were able to do that. Do you even know? Or were you too young like many here?

    I will tell you why... George spent the 80's trying to buy a champion. He signed high priced over the hill talent to huge contracts, traded our farm for more overhyped players and the NYY sucked. Because the Yanks sucked, they started getting primo draft picks... Then, George got sent to the penalty box and Micheals and Watson were not going to keep up the blank checkbook on a loosing team. They stopped trading our top talented young prospects and worked on building the system with simply fielding a team that would not badly embarass the city as much as the teams of the 80's did. We actually did better in the early 90's with lesser payroll than the 80's when george was at his worst. BTW, Watson and Micheals built the team's farm the same way that Tampa, Pittsburgh, KC and Texas have done it... with many years of futility.

    Now, the rules have changed a bit again. Now that there is a strong PED punishment process in place, players are playing like they did in the 80's again. We are not seeing light hitting SS's hitting 30 home runs, and playing into their 40's anymore. We are seeing players start to decline in their mid 30's and only a few able to continue past that. Take a look back around 2000 and see just how many were playing deep into their 40's. It was never that way prior to 1990, and it seems to be reverting back to that. That means that UFA's are not going to be worth the big 10 year deals that we say DJ, or A-Rod sign anymore. Teams are going back to trying to lock up players long term because a UFA is not worth it any longer.

    Now, the NYY brass is stepping back and trying to keep a bit more money rather than just pay it to MLB for NOTHING. At the same time, they are allowing the guys we do have on the farm to develop and pick up and hold on to a few early round draft picks. But they are not going to be league basement dwellers while doing it.

    Get our of the early 2000's mindset of buying good players, and be patient. In late January, when a few players are going to get a bit more desparate we may pick up a few surprises.

    Oh, and as good as Montero was at the time of the trade, Pineda was better. His numbers were better as his were MLB numbers. BUT, nobody is immune to injuries. Still, the others are correct in that Montero did not have a position on this team. He will never be a full time catcher, he was never going to unseat tex at first and we have others to play at DH. A healthy Pineda filled a need. It will be interesting to see how Pineda comes back from his injury. Still, Montero was average at best his first season in the majors. Which is better than he would have been here (here, he would have been another player in SWB, not NY as the NYY did not have a place to play him)

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by theslick1 View Post
    Montero has a position - it's DH. He's as much of a catcher as Napoli is. He's never been and will never been an OF. Maybe one day someone will buy him a 1B glove for Christmas and he will learn how to use it, but that day has yet to come.

    It's not an organizational failure that Montero can't play a position anymore than it's an organizational failure that Napoli or Ortiz can't play positions. These guys are what they are.
    No.

    Ortiz was a first baseman for both Minnesota and Boston. Eventually, with age, he was relegated, and rightfully so, to DH.

    Montero, as a young stud was never groomed into a position. What does that say for your developmental acumen that you can't even teach A KID a position. Ortiz was a later age changeover and correct me if im wrong but Napoli played multiple years as catcher.
    Last edited by sauronthepower; 12-28-2012 at 02:47 PM.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    I have read you last few entries and I have to say that you are correct on a few points... BUT, you miss the "why".

    You talk about how great a job that Micheals and Watson did in the early 90's in building that dominate team that was the NYY in the late 90's, but you fail to admit to why they were able to do that. Do you even know? Or were you too young like many here?

    I will tell you why... George spent the 80's trying to buy a champion. He signed high priced over the hill talent to huge contracts, traded our farm for more overhyped players and the NYY sucked. Because the Yanks sucked, they started getting primo draft picks... Then, George got sent to the penalty box and Micheals and Watson were not going to keep up the blank checkbook on a loosing team. They stopped trading our top talented young prospects and worked on building the system with simply fielding a team that would not badly embarass the city as much as the teams of the 80's did. We actually did better in the early 90's with lesser payroll than the 80's when george was at his worst. BTW, Watson and Micheals built the team's farm the same way that Tampa, Pittsburgh, KC and Texas have done it... with many years of futility.

    Now, the rules have changed a bit again. Now that there is a strong PED punishment process in place, players are playing like they did in the 80's again. We are not seeing light hitting SS's hitting 30 home runs, and playing into their 40's anymore. We are seeing players start to decline in their mid 30's and only a few able to continue past that. Take a look back around 2000 and see just how many were playing deep into their 40's. It was never that way prior to 1990, and it seems to be reverting back to that. That means that UFA's are not going to be worth the big 10 year deals that we say DJ, or A-Rod sign anymore. Teams are going back to trying to lock up players long term because a UFA is not worth it any longer.

    Now, the NYY brass is stepping back and trying to keep a bit more money rather than just pay it to MLB for NOTHING. At the same time, they are allowing the guys we do have on the farm to develop and pick up and hold on to a few early round draft picks. But they are not going to be league basement dwellers while doing it.

    Get our of the early 2000's mindset of buying good players, and be patient. In late January, when a few players are going to get a bit more desparate we may pick up a few surprises.

    Oh, and as good as Montero was at the time of the trade, Pineda was better. His numbers were better as his were MLB numbers. BUT, nobody is immune to injuries. Still, the others are correct in that Montero did not have a position on this team. He will never be a full time catcher, he was never going to unseat tex at first and we have others to play at DH. A healthy Pineda filled a need. It will be interesting to see how Pineda comes back from his injury. Still, Montero was average at best his first season in the majors. Which is better than he would have been here (here, he would have been another player in SWB, not NY as the NYY did not have a place to play him)
    As someone who long suffered the 80's and the Stump Merrill years I am well aware that Georges removal from the organization freed us up not to make stupid moves like trading Mo or Bernie (both moves George was about to make in the early 90's and had to be talked down from the ledge).

    Problem is this IMHO, Cashman has shown ABSOLUTELY NONE of the penchant or skill for being able to formulate, execute and then deliver a long term franchise vision concerning the prospects.

    He has demonstrated REPEATEDLY failure be it from Joba's flip flopping, to pissing away our greatest offensive prospect not named Cano, for a guy who was shut down and had injury concerns, to bouncing Hughes back and forth to the utter failure thus far of the Killer B's.

    Cashman/Levine/Hal is not a Bob Watson/Gene Michael/Buck Showalter.

    Not by a VERY long shot.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauronthepower View Post
    As someone who long suffered the 80's and the Stump Merrill years I am well aware that Georges removal from the organization freed us up not to make stupid moves like trading Mo or Bernie (both moves George was about to make in the early 90's and had to be talked down from the ledge).

    Problem is this IMHO, Cashman has shown ABSOLUTELY NONE of the penchant or skill for being able to formulate, execute and then deliver a long term franchise vision concerning the prospects.

    He has demonstrated REPEATEDLY failure be it from Joba's flip flopping, to pissing away our greatest offensive prospect not named Cano, for a guy who was shut down and had injury concerns, to bouncing Hughes back and forth to the utter failure thus far of the Killer B's.

    Cashman/Levine/Hal is not a Bob Watson/Gene Michael/Buck Showalter.

    Not by a VERY long shot.

    Cashman has neither traded for nor developed a single significant player in his entire tenure here. He keeps players that suck and trades away those who actually have any talent. Even his bigger FA signings are more or less fiascos. I don't see how anyone can be shocked that he traded the number 3 prospect in baseball for a pitcher with a torn labrum, or that he kept a middle reliever as opposed to trading him for an ace.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.

    - Mark Twain

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