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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    How many 4.00 ERA guys did we have in the starting rotation last year
    Too many. We need a frontline starter, not a #3. I don't know why you're so hung up on Sanchez who got overpaid long term.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
    Too many. We need a frontline starter, not a #3. I don't know why you're so hung up on Sanchez who got overpaid long term.
    You answered incorrectly. Here's our starters' approximate ERAs last year:

    Lester: 4.82
    Buck: 4.56
    Doubront: 4.80
    Lackey: DNP but it was something like 8 the year before

    We have a bunch of guys with ERA's closer to 5.00

    Sanchez would be a #1 on this team.

    There are no FRONTline starters available. I'd love to hear your best idea on acquiring a Felix/Verlander/Lee/etc.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    He has had better numbers recently than any of our pitchers. That's an undeniable fact.
    What's your span of time? Since Sanchez has been a full time SP since the start of 2010, I suggest 3 years is the span of time:

    Jon Lester 9.4 rWAR > Anibal Sanchez 9.0 over the past 3 years.

    It's an undeniable fact.

    So to say that Sanchez is not an "ace" or that 6 years is overpaying is simply irrelevant.
    False. Sanchez isn't an ace and 6 years is too long. If he signed for the same money at 3 years here, I'd be all for it.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    You answered incorrectly. Here's our starters' approximate ERAs last year:

    Lester: 4.82
    Buck: 4.56
    Doubront: 4.80
    Lackey: DNP but it was something like 8 the year before

    We have a bunch of guys with ERA's closer to 5.00

    Sanchez would be a #1 on this team.

    There are no FRONTline starters available. I'd love to hear your best idea on acquiring a Felix/Verlander/Lee/etc.
    Who gives a ****? He's the best of the worst then? Still doesn't make our team better. You want to give money to a guy instead of waiting for a better player the year after when we aren't expected to be a contender? That's ridiculous, impatient and impractical.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    What's your span of time? Since Sanchez has been a full time SP since the start of 2010, I suggest 3 years is the span of time:

    Jon Lester 9.4 rWAR > Anibal Sanchez 9.0 over the past 3 years.

    It's an undeniable fact.



    False. Sanchez isn't an ace and 6 years is too long. If he signed for the same money at 3 years here, I'd be all for it.
    Ok. Sanchez's WAR was BARELY worse than Lester's over the last 3 years. It seems like you're reaching though. What about Sanchez vs. the rest of our staff? What about the fact that Lester's numbers have been in an undeniable decline over the last 3 years? Why are you supposing that his WAR from 3 years ago is going to be relevant next year?

    6 years is too much. That seems to be what the going rate is for decent starters nowadays. But what are our alternatives? The crap-tastic rotation we had last year? We lost out on cheap guys like Pelfrey and Baker, both of whom I would have liked. Greinke is gone to make billions in LA. We can't just "trade for ace."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
    Who gives a ****? He's the best of the worst then? Still doesn't make our team better. You want to give money to a guy instead of waiting for a better player the year after when we aren't expected to be a contender? That's ridiculous, impatient and impractical.
    He would be the best pitcher in our starting rotation. It's not all that needs to be done, but it would be a start. Do you really not understand how that makes the team better? We need pitching, he's a decent pitcher.

  7. #37
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    BY THE WAY Sanchez got a five year deal. The sixth year was a club option...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    You answered incorrectly. Here's our starters' approximate ERAs last year:

    Lester: 4.82
    Buck: 4.56
    Doubront: 4.80
    Lackey: DNP but it was something like 8 the year before

    We have a bunch of guys with ERA's closer to 5.00

    Sanchez would be a #1 on this team.

    There are no FRONTline starters available. I'd love to hear your best idea on acquiring a Felix/Verlander/Lee/etc.
    Did you adjust for the park?

    BR Neutralized:

    Sanchez: 4.19

    Dempster: 3.51

    Hmmmmm...

    You also failed to mention that the Sox have had 3 different pitching coaches the past 3 seasons.

    Besides, what good will a top ace (not Sanchez who is not and will never be) who is in his 30's when this team isn't a serious WS contender for 3 or perhaps 4 or more years? Going to blow up the farm or over pay for a career mediocrity like Sanchez. Oh yes he is in terms of quality quite middle of the road. There is nothing remotely ace like about him, his stuff, or his career.

    Sanchez's best year cannot touch the best year (or in some cases 3 years) of:

    Lester
    Lackey
    Dempster
    Buchholz


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    Ok. Sanchez's WAR was BARELY worse than Lester's over the last 3 years. It seems like you're reaching though.
    I'm just getting started. BTW 4.3% over years on average isn't barely. See my prior post to this one for more direct hits on Sanchez.

    What about Sanchez vs. the rest of our staff? What about the fact that Lester's numbers have been in an undeniable decline over the last 3 years? Why are you supposing that his WAR from 3 years ago is going to be relevant next year?
    The way players are judged includes 3 year windows, it's perfectly valid. You fail to mention Lester, Lackey, and Buchholz have all had 3 different pitching coaches these past 3 years, and all got a lot worse after Farrell left. You also fail to consider Lackey going out and pitching when many of the Ellsbury level of toughness would be sitting or being cut. Lackey's first year here fits very nicely with Sanchez's career, except he pitched almost 20 more innings than Annibell has ever thrown in his career.

    6 years is too much. That seems to be what the going rate is for decent starters nowadays. But what are our alternatives? The crap-tastic rotation we had last year? We lost out on cheap guys like Pelfrey and Baker, both of whom I would have liked. Greinke is gone to make billions in LA. We can't just "trade for ace."
    Get a better pitching coach, grab Dempster, and improve the pen - all things we could do, and did do.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 12-18-2012 at 04:43 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #40
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    Man, I think you're seeing things through some very red-tinted glasses.

    Yes, we have had three different pitching coaches - two of them were fired because they couldn't figure out how to get these guys to pitch well. Is it all on the pitching coaches?? So what makes you so sure Juan Nieves is the answer?

    People seem to think Farrell has this magic hand that will turn Lester and Buchholz into good pitchers again. Sorry, but I'm really skeptical.

    I failed to mention Dempster because he was not on the team last year. I agree he's an improvement.

    I'm hopeful Lackey can bounce back and be average or a little above average. But I really don't think we should BANK on that.

    You call him "Annibel" but I'm fairly sure he's pitched more innings on average than our friend Clay Buchholz has.... by a fair amount.

    And look, I never ever said Anibal is an "ace" by any stretch, he's not an absolutely tremendous, can't-miss pitcher. But he's good. I am saying he's an improvement over what we have, and there is no possible way to just obtain an ace. So are we trying to stay afloat and contend next year or are we rebuilding?

    If we are rebuilding, then we should trade Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Bailey, and anyone else who might have some prospect-value to someone.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    He would be the best pitcher in our starting rotation. It's not all that needs to be done, but it would be a start. Do you really not understand how that makes the team better? We need pitching, he's a decent pitcher.
    No he wouldn't. Lester is far better than Sanchez. His peripherals and the way he finished this season lead me to believe he should be able to rebound fine this year. And aside from 2012, he is far better than Sanchez. And when Buchholz is healthy he is better than Sanchez, but durability has made him the lesser player over the course of an 162 game season.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomar View Post
    No he wouldn't. Lester is far better than Sanchez. His peripherals and the way he finished this season lead me to believe he should be able to rebound fine this year. And aside from 2012, he is far better than Sanchez. And when Buchholz is healthy he is better than Sanchez, but durability has made him the lesser player over the course of an 162 game season.
    Not sure how you can say "far better." Even if you look at some of Lester's great years, using Bagwell's "3 year window," Lester has been worth less than half of a win more than Sanchez.

    Look at the bigger picture and you see Lester's numbers sharply declining.

  13. #43
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    Lester pitches in the much tougher division/league, difference in ballpark dimensions is quite significant as well.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALMVPDUSTY View Post
    Not sure how you can say "far better." Even if you look at some of Lester's great years, using Bagwell's "3 year window," Lester has been worth less than half of a win more than Sanchez.

    Look at the bigger picture and you see Lester's numbers sharply declining.
    Sharply in one year, gradually, sure but not that much.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...930&position=P

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...284&position=P

    He's definitely a lot better. Going into 2012 nobody on earth would've said Sanchez is as good. One year makes you say he has been for 3 years? No he has not been, and he isnt. I'm done talking about this because you don't know how next year will play out. If Sanchez is as good as Lester this year then go ahead and bring this up again.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AI4 View Post
    Lester pitches in the much tougher division/league, difference in ballpark dimensions is quite significant as well.
    Yeah Miami and Detroit for that matter too are much bigger than Fenway, YS, and Camden. There's a reason Beckett went from a 5.00 ERA pitcher to a sub 3.00 ERA pitcher by simply being traded, and AJ Burnett is all of the sudden a good #3 again for Pitt.

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