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  1. #166
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    he better not be getting 2 years
    30 Team Stadium Checklist: 10 to go

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  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
    Catcher is a more valuable position and as such, shouldn't be used to compare other players in different positions. Martin's WAR is that high because he's a catcher.
    Which is why I took the liberty of including wOBA, which is not adjusted for park, position, or league so it's context-neutral. I also made sure to include wRC+ which is park and league adjusted but is not position adjusted. But you didn't care to factor that in whatsoever before making your post did you now? No...that wouldn't fit very neatly in your cherry-picking agenda, would it?
    Last edited by x McLovin x; 12-13-2012 at 09:10 AM.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by x McLovin x View Post
    Which is why I took the liberty of including wOBA, which is not adjusted for park, position, or league so it's context-neutral. I also made sure to include wRC+ which is park and league adjusted but is not position adjusted. But you didn't care to factor that in whatsoever before making your post did you now? No...that wouldn't fit very neatly in your cherry-picking agenda, would it?
    No need to be so defensive.

    Would it make you feel better if I patted you on your back for the other information you presented which was accurate?

    It still doesn't change the fact that using WAR in such a manner is wrong.

  4. #169
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    Itchy was great for us in crunch time. Isn't that really all that matters to this point?
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    BREAKING NEWS: Sources tell me it's official. We stink.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
    No need to be so defensive.

    Would it make you feel better if I patted you on your back for the other information you presented which was accurate?

    It still doesn't change the fact that using WAR in such a manner is wrong.
    I'm sorry if I came off as defensive and I can see why you would feel that way when re-reading my post, but I don't care for a "pat on the back." Just sharing my opinion.

    Having said that, it irritates the **** out of me when someone doesn't care to post anything constructive at all in their reply and cherry-picks a minute detail in the beginning of the post. Sometimes it leads me to believe that the person is just a troll and read nothing else in the post. I'm truly sorry if that was not the case with you.

    I agree with you that in this case WAR isn't very useful in this particular situation when comparing Ichiro's production to Martin's, because their WARs are so close for 2012 and that stat should be used more as like a barometer of a player's total value. When WAR values are that close it's not that helpful in giving you a definitive answer for who is better because of the inherent risks associated with the defensive component of the stat. But it does give a frame of reference for their approximate value when compared to their positional peers offensively and defensively which lets you know which player may be the better "value." I meant to add it in for context purposes, not necessarily to fortify my opinion of which one is better than the other in a vacuum. And when you look at the last 2 seasons as a whole, the difference in WAR is more pronounced, and when coupled with the fact that Martin at 29 is more likely to improve in the next two seasons than Ichiro is at 39, my opinion that Martin is a better overall bet going forward stands to reason.
    Last edited by x McLovin x; 12-13-2012 at 11:24 AM.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
    Catcher is a more valuable position and as such, shouldn't be used to compare other players in different positions. Martin's WAR is that high because he's a catcher.
    Isn't that the point? That a catcher is inherantly more valuable than a RFer.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by leoharris View Post
    Itchy was great for us in crunch time. Isn't that really all that matters to this point?
    As long as his contract situation doesn't stop us from adding other players who should be good for us in crunch time as well.

    I have no problem with him, in fact I really like him. I just get the feeling that this may hinder our flexibility to add an above average player at other positions, namely catcher, right field (still do not want him to be a starter if we also have Gardner in the OF), and, to a lesser extent, DH. Are there possible upgrades in these areas (or other areas which are already filled) via trade or free agency that are now not feasible if the reported 2 year $12-14 million contract rumors are true? That is my issue Leo.
    Last edited by x McLovin x; 12-13-2012 at 10:11 AM.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by leoharris View Post
    Itchy was great for us in crunch time. Isn't that really all that matters to this point?
    No, apparently not. The need to complain about everything seems to be the only thing of importance.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylinkus View Post
    Isn't that the point? That a catcher is inherantly more valuable than a RFer.
    Not when there are/were other catchers available who could be had with similar or better WAR than him.

    If we're needing catchers is seems much more logical that we compare the stats between them rather than compare them to different position players.

    Letting Martin walk had everything to do with his demands and much less to do with his stats.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
    Not when there are/were other catchers available who could be had with similar or better WAR than him.

    If we're needing catchers is seems much more logical that we compare the stats between them rather than compare them to different position players.

    Letting Martin walk had everything to do with his demands and much less to do with his stats.
    And Ichiro's demands? Are they evaluated on a different basis than Martin's demands?

    Just out of curiosity, if their demands are comparable - which they appear to be - who is your better overall bet for the next two seasons? And which position do you think is more of a need given the current organizational depth and relative positional values? And is it easier to replace a light-hitting below average-average speedy outfielder or an above average starting catcher who has power (for a lineup that stands to lose quite a bit of it because of departures and age-related declines) based on the available trade and free agent options? Because to me it seems like both are lined up to get comparable contracts, yet Martin is more valuable in terms of overall statistics, positional value, positional scarcity, and current team needs.
    Last edited by x McLovin x; 12-13-2012 at 11:14 AM.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightsport View Post
    Not when there are/were other catchers available who could be had with similar or better WAR than him.

    If we're needing catchers is seems much more logical that we compare the stats between them rather than compare them to different position players.

    Letting Martin walk had everything to do with his demands and much less to do with his stats.
    But if signing Ichiro prevents us from signing Martin, then we do need to compare those 2. Apparently we have a budget. So we have limited resources to allocate. So we need to judge, how best to spend the money we have. And I think if the money is similar, Martin was a more valuable asset to this team than Ichiro. I'd rather let Dickerson roam RF than have Cervelli catching if everything else is equal.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylinkus View Post
    But if signing Ichiro prevents us from signing Martin, then we do need to compare those 2. Apparently we have a budget. So we have limited resources to allocate. So we need to judge, how best to spend the money we have. And I think if the money is similar, Martin was a more valuable asset to this team than Ichiro. I'd rather let Dickerson roam RF than have Cervelli catching if everything else is equal.
    Thank you.

  13. #178
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    Ichiro will make the team more money, I think that is the bottom line here.

  14. #179
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    i am glad he is back, this guy can stll play at an all star level

  15. #180
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    I dont know about that...

    Hopefully he hits as well as he did the end of the year with us...only the entire year this time.

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