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View Poll Results: Who do you feel 'won' this thread?

Voters
95. You may not vote on this poll
  • Rays, easily

    64 67.37%
  • Royals, easily

    4 4.21%
  • Rays, but it's close

    14 14.74%
  • Royals, but it's close

    6 6.32%
  • It's a draw. Both teams got what they needed/wanted

    7 7.37%
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Results 556 to 570 of 576
  1. #556
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    I was surprised in the minor league numbers comparable between Myers and Adam Dunn.
    Myers..
    381/1407 - .303/.395/.522/.917
    Dunn..
    343/1208 - .304/.425/.525/.950

    Adam Dunn also never K as much in the minors, actually less than Myers has. Myers minor league career K% is 20.6% and Dunn minor league K% is 18.2%.

    even with Dunn's high K numbers and low AVG, he has still been productive. but I would think people expect Myers to be better than that.

    Velvet Sky. hottest woman in wrestling

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    I don't really have an interest with the Snider vs Myers comparison. It was merely an example, which to I can give plenty to. There are TONS of prospects ranked in the top 10 of every baseball America or MLB ranking systems you can find who have flamed out. If you want to toss defense in there too, that's fine and I'll certainly give you that, but I thought majority of the conversation was cycling around whether his bat was going to stick at the big league level. For the record, I agree with you and I think it will. I also think his defense will keep him around long enough to get plenty of chances to mature and have a starting job.

    That said, some of the best prospects in baseball were guys like Ian Stewart, Delmon Young, Andy Marte, Cameron Maybin, Brandon Wood, etc. Just can't assume they're going to be good.
    Oh absolutely. There will always be prospects that bust. But it is getting better (the number of prospects that bust compared to a decade ago).

  3. #558
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    I don't get the whole "even the best prospects can bust" defense of the Royals. That is true of every player, no matter how well established. Look at Tim Lincecum last year.

    The reason this trade is so ridiculous isn't just the value of the players involved, it's the position of the Kansas City Royals. They were not merely one top-of-the-rotation starter away from being a true contender. They are a bad team.

    If Kansas had been a 92 win team last year, you could make a legitimate attempt to defend this trade. Unfortunately, they were only a 72 win team.

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    I don't get the whole "even the best prospects can bust" defense of the Royals. That is true of every player, no matter how well established. Look at Tim Lincecum last year.

    The reason this trade is so ridiculous isn't just the value of the players involved, it's the position of the Kansas City Royals. They were not merely one top-of-the-rotation starter away from being a true contender. They are a bad team.

    If Kansas had been a 92 win team last year, you could make a legitimate attempt to defend this trade. Unfortunately, they were only a 72 win team.
    No one disagrees, I'm sure.


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    I don't get the whole "even the best prospects can bust" defense of the Royals. That is true of every player, no matter how well established. Look at Tim Lincecum last year.

    The reason this trade is so ridiculous isn't just the value of the players involved, it's the position of the Kansas City Royals. They were not merely one top-of-the-rotation starter away from being a true contender. They are a bad team.

    If Kansas had been a 92 win team last year, you could make a legitimate attempt to defend this trade. Unfortunately, they were only a 72 win team.
    they didn't just add Shields. they resigned Guthrie. he's not that good, but he did have good numbers after being traded to Kansas City last season. they also traded for Ervin Santana. Santana wasn't that good either in 2012, but still had nice numbers in the previous seasons. those 3 full time in 2013 might not make them a contender on paper, but it is possible. Minnesota and Cleveland are still worse than Kansas City, so they only have to be better than Detroit/Chicago. I'm not saying I would pick KC to contend, but I don't think anyone would have picked Baltimore to contend in 2012. Baltimore went from 69 wins in 2011 to 93 wins in 2012. regardless of all the statistics and the way the teams look on paper, they still have to go out and play the games.

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  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    they didn't just add Shields. they resigned Guthrie. he's not that good, but he did have good numbers after being traded to Kansas City last season. they also traded for Ervin Santana. Santana wasn't that good either in 2012, but still had nice numbers in the previous seasons. those 3 full time in 2013 might not make them a contender on paper, but it is possible. Minnesota and Cleveland are still worse than Kansas City, so they only have to be better than Detroit/Chicago. I'm not saying I would pick KC to contend, but I don't think anyone would have picked Baltimore to contend in 2012. Baltimore went from 69 wins in 2011 to 93 wins in 2012. regardless of all the statistics and the way the teams look on paper, they still have to go out and play the games.
    So your argument is this trade is legitimized by the fact that Baltimore beat all the odds and finished second in their division in 2012, therefore all bottom feeder teams should operate like they can win the lottery too?

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    So your argument is this trade is legitimized by the fact that Baltimore beat all the odds and finished second in their division in 2012, therefore all bottom feeder teams should operate like they can win the lottery too?
    How the **** did you get that from his post? This isn't what he said, at all.


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

  8. #563
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    I'm not saying that the Royal's offense is amazing, but they're certainly not horrible. I think if they had a rotation that was equally not horrible, they could potentially add 10 wins a season. I don't think they have a huge "window" of time, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're a relevant team near the end of August.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    How the **** did you get that from his post? This isn't what he said, at all.
    He referenced Shields, Guthrie and Santana and said how these additions may not be a contender on paper, but look at Baltimore's 2012 success. If the Baltimore model is the one they're going for, it's probably going to be pretty bleak in KC.

  10. #565
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    the Royals had 72 wins in 2012.
    my point was that they didn't just add Shields. just adding Shields to a team that won 72 games in 2012 wouldn't do much good. adding Shields to that team maybe makes them a .500 team, if that. but they also added Santana, while also resigning Guthrie. now I'm saying those players on paper might not look like a contender, but just because a team on paper doesn't look like a contender doesn't mean they can't end up being a contender. I just used Baltimore as 1 example. there are likely multiple examples every season where teams contend that you wouldn't expect. it's easy to look at any team on paper and say well this team isn't a contender so they wont contend. teams have to actually play the games and see what happens.
    fans of KC have a good reason to be optimistic, even if their team on paper might not look like a team to contend.

    Velvet Sky. hottest woman in wrestling

  11. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    He referenced Shields, Guthrie and Santana and said how these additions may not be a contender on paper, but look at Baltimore's 2012 success. If the Baltimore model is the one they're going for, it's probably going to be pretty bleak in KC.
    Royals opening day 2012 starting rotation
    Luke Hochevar
    Bruce Chen
    Jonathan Sanchez
    Danny Duffy
    Felipe Paulino

    Royals opening day 2013 starting rotation
    James Shields
    Ervin Santana
    Jeremy Guthrie
    Wade Davis
    Bruce Chen

    While I'm not saying their staff is amazing or anything, that's one hell of an upgrade.


    Had to be done! Go T-Rex

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by StayOnBoard View Post
    Royals opening day 2012 starting rotation
    Luke Hochevar
    Bruce Chen
    Jonathan Sanchez
    Danny Duffy
    Felipe Paulino

    Royals opening day 2013 starting rotation
    James Shields
    Ervin Santana
    Jeremy Guthrie
    Wade Davis
    Bruce Chen

    While I'm not saying their staff is amazing or anything, that's one hell of an upgrade.
    Shields is great.

    Davis had a good year last year out of the bullpen, but has been pretty bad as a starter in his previous couple of seasons.

    Santana's only good year was five years ago (2008).

    Guthrie has never been good.

    Chen is still there and has also never had a good year.

    It's obvious Shields is an upgrade. The rest of the rotation sucks quick frankly. Upgraded or not, it's still bad 2 through 5.

  13. #568
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    I hate coming back to this thread but:

    Santana was good in 2011.

    Guthrie has had more good years than bad years since a breakout season in 2007.

    Also, that Garza trade was awesome for the Cubs and is exactly how a trade should go for both sides (the Rays will likely get some cheap role players in Archer and Lee with maybe Guyer providing some value in the OF as well).

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Santana was good in 2011.
    It was pretty average, and to say the second best season he's had in his career was merely average is telling about the quality of pitcher he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    Guthrie has had more good years than bad years since a breakout season in 2007.
    No he hasn't. He hasn't had one single year in his career with a FIP or xFIP under 4.00.

  15. #570
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    Since we're playing the one number to rule them all game:

    Guthrie has been worth less than 2 WAR twice in the last 6 seasons. He did this with the vast majority of those innings in arguably the toughest division in the sport.

    Santana's best season was worth nearly 6 (5.8) fWAR in 2008. In 2010 and 2011 he was worth 5.1 fWAR (2.2 and 2.9). He also put up 3.4 fWAR in 2007.

    Yes, neither was good in 2012. They do have good histories and Guthrie actually pitched well for KC in the second half.

    Both represent upgrades in upside and history to the previous group of starters KC fielded. This is what moving margins is - the Royals had to give Will Smith and his 5.32 ERA and no history of good ML performance 16 starts...Sanchez...Mazzaro...Teaford....all those guys got multiple starts and the only one with any kind k history of success was Sanchez, who barely can throw strikes anymore let alone give you a good start. With some luck Paulino and Duffy come back and offer some late season depth/reinforcements.
    Last edited by SenorGato; 12-14-2012 at 01:18 AM.

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