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Thread: Quit Whining

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Yes it is a contradictory statement. You want him to do something but you don't give him the time to do it.

    Can't have it both ways. Give him a long contract or forget it.
    no way. if i've been on the job for 4 years and haven't done a particularly good job, why would my boss offer me a long contract without seeing first if i could start to turn things around?

    you are assuming that the only barometer of success would be a rise to power in the conference. i'm sure it was agreed upon that simply making progress towards being a good team would be enough to talk long term deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    no way. if i've been on the job for 4 years and haven't done a particularly good job, why would my boss offer me a long contract without seeing first if i could start to turn things around?

    you are assuming that the only barometer of success would be a rise to power in the conference. i'm sure it was agreed upon that simply making progress towards being a good team would be enough to talk long term deal.
    There ARE signs. You can see some real talent developing. The problem is there is no cohesion yet. The season is also not over.

    Hopefully ownership is not like the fan base which measures from game to game.

    And the point remains that if they wanted an extensive rebuild, they should NEVER have agreed to a two year "re-tool".

    That's what is asinine. Because we know he presented them with a plan to be competitive within the term of his extension.

    THAT is asinine.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    no way. if i've been on the job for 4 years and haven't done a particularly good job, why would my boss offer me a long contract without seeing first if i could start to turn things around?

    you are assuming that the only barometer of success would be a rise to power in the conference. i'm sure it was agreed upon that simply making progress towards being a good team would be enough to talk long term deal.
    You can't do anything in 2 years. It's either you give him 4 years or fire him. 2 yers doesn't do **** for the organization.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    You can't do anything in 2 years. It's either you give him 4 years or fire him. 2 yers doesn't do **** for the organization.
    Except to potentially do longer term damage by doing a rushed rebuild.

    That's what I call a wasted opportunity.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    You can't do anything in 2 years. It's either you give him 4 years or fire him. 2 yers doesn't do **** for the organization.
    umm didn't the rebuild technically begin before he got his two year deal? you don't think he convinced his employers that despite the poor results there were the seeds of something promising already germinating? this isn't about 2 years!

    Colangelo is a well paid executive. he has a reputation that has exceeded his performance in Toronto so far. They gave him a little more rope to continue his rebuild, not start one. i'm sure they weren't anxious to eat the final couple years of his contract if the downward trend continued so they offered him a short contract hoping to see progress. i would have preferred they washed their hands of him at that point so i think he was fortunate.

    enough with the terrible excuses already. if this organization wasn't in disarray right now we wouldn't even be talking about this.
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-10-2012 at 07:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I'm not going to disagree. But given what we know about his impatience, isn't it like giving crack to a coke addict to say "you have two years to rebuild"?
    That is one way to look at it. But since he hasn't shown a willingness to be patient in a decade and a half as a gm and he didn't really show anything to deserve a long term contract I'm not too bothered. A 2 year contract is like giving him an ounce, a 5 year contract is like giving him a pound.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    If ownership wanted a rebuild they were sending out 1. contradictory messages with the contract length, and 2. giving him incentive to do a half-assed job.
    Ownership may or may not have wanted a rebuild but I believe it is customary for a position like this to have the guy sell his vision. Don't you think its possible that BC sold this vision, a rushed rebuild? Although I'm sure he didn't put it that way. It's also why I think the idea behind that Firebc.com thing isn't a bad one. Get enough people sending the message that they want a proper rebuild and for ownership to show patience with it and maybe they will atleast consider some candidates with that type of vision.

    I do think they have to make a decision one way or another by the middle of January. If they go with a new gm a couple months are needed to hire a new gm and allow him a chance going into the offseason. Babcock was screwed over that way. Wasn't hired until like 10 days before the draft and the interm gm was kept in charge of the draft since Babcock hadn't been there for any of the scouting or player workouts.
    Last edited by Bramaca; 12-10-2012 at 08:03 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    umm didn't the rebuild technically begin before he got his two year deal? you don't think he convinced his employers that despite the poor results there were the seeds of something promising already germinating? this isn't about 2 years!
    Yes it is. When you're given more chances and guaranteed, you'll take more risk. Colangelo, by ocnstatnly being on his contract year, will continue to make moves that fall outside what his main vision is because he's doing it to save his job. Like for example, we could've had good young players and have a better future if we waited but instead, he tried to go after guys like Nash because he wanted to make the playoffs(even though we'd be like 8th seed) as a way to save his job.

    Colangelo is a well paid executive. he has a reputation that has exceeded his performance in Toronto so far. They gave him a little more rope to continue his rebuild, not start one. i'm sure they weren't anxious to eat the final couple years of his contract if the downward trend continued so they offered him a short contract hoping to see progress. i would have preferred they washed their hands of him at that point so i think he was fortunate.

    enough with the terrible excuses already. if this organization wasn't in disarray right now we wouldn't even be talking about this.
    BC has the tendency to make rushed moves when he's pressured to save his job. For example, if he waited, we could've had a better opportunity, but instead, he went after O'neal because he was on his contract year (I believe). When he was pressured to make Bosh happy, he rushed to sign Turkoglu hoping he'd still retain his form. This season, we clearly weren't ready to make the playoffs but he was pressured so he tried to go after Nash (which got us stuck with Fields), then traded for Lowry, who while good, isn't the best fit for this team.

    There are no terrible excuses. I was stating facts. You don't do anything positive with short term deals. They need to have a proper rebuilding mode. The only way you do that is to give the guy the reigns. Clearly they don't trust BC. That's why they should've fired him instead of trying to give him a short deal to redeem himself. It just doesn't work.
    Last edited by Raps08-09 Champ; 12-10-2012 at 08:15 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    Except to potentially do longer term damage by doing a rushed rebuild.

    That's what I call a wasted opportunity.
    I agree. You aren't doing him any favours by giving him 2 year deals. He'll panic and he'll just do moves like sign Hedo hoping he'll keep Bosh around or try to sign Nash and get us stuck with Fields.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    BC has the tendency to make rushed moves when he's pressured to save his job. For example, if he waited, we could've had a better opportunity, but instead, he went after O'neal because he was on his contract year (I believe). When he was pressured to make Bosh happy, he rushed to sign Turkoglu hoping he'd still retain his form. This season, we clearly weren't ready to make the playoffs but he was pressured so he tried to go after Nash (which got us stuck with Fields), then traded for Lowry, who while good, isn't the best fit for this team.

    There are no terrible excuses. I was stating facts. You don't do anything positive with short term deals. They need to have a proper rebuilding mode. The only way you do that is to give the guy the reigns. Clearly they don't trust BC. That's why they should've fired him instead of trying to give him a short deal to redeem himself. It just doesn't work.
    That should be the end of the statement, he just makes rushed moves. The JO move was made when he had 3 years left on his contract, Marion move made with 2 and a half years left, Turk with two years left. There's not much of a difference between his rushed moves 'under pressure' of keeping a contract and when there is no pressure for a new contract.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    That should be the end of the statement, he just makes rushed moves. The JO move was made when he had 3 years left on his contract, Marion move made with 2 and a half years left, Turk with two years left. There's not much of a difference between his rushed moves 'under pressure' of keeping a contract and when there is no pressure for a new contract.
    He signed Turk when he was on his final year. But they thought he did well so they picked up his option. He did the JO trade because he was pressured to get a player that played defence against O'Neal. The MArion trade was a fix trade.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    Ownership may or may not have wanted a rebuild but I believe it is customary for a position like this to have the guy sell his vision. Don't you think its possible that BC sold this vision, a rushed rebuild? Although I'm sure he didn't put it that way.
    I'm positive BC sold his rushed rebuild (and I agree he didn't put it that way).

    The stupidity on their part is that they bought it. There hasn't been enough time and as we know the build had to be more thorough, not half measures. It was ludicrous that anyone actually believed this year's team should have been or could have been a playoff team this quickly. We weren't just a piece or two away.

    That's why I am not upset AT ALL with how this season has gone. I didn't expect anything and didn't care about getting to the playoffs only to be swept in the first round by the Heat.

    It's also why I think the idea behind that Firebc.com thing isn't a bad one. Get enough people sending the message that they want a proper rebuild and for ownership to show patience with it and maybe they will atleast consider some candidates with that type of vision.
    I don't think the firebc.com site has a solitary clue what they want. Just to ***** mainly.

    I do think they have to make a decision one way or another by the middle of January. If they go with a new gm a couple months are needed to hire a new gm and allow him a chance going into the offseason. Babcock was screwed over that way. Wasn't hired until like 10 days before the draft and the interm gm was kept in charge of the draft since Babcock hadn't been there for any of the scouting or player workouts.
    Yes I think they will make a decision by mid January. That was about when Babcock was fired; BC was hired on Feb 28, 2006.

    And yes, they screwed Babcock over by not giving him enough lead time for the draft.
    Last edited by ink; 12-10-2012 at 09:06 PM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    That should be the end of the statement, he just makes rushed moves. The JO move was made when he had 3 years left on his contract, Marion move made with 2 and a half years left, Turk with two years left. There's not much of a difference between his rushed moves 'under pressure' of keeping a contract and when there is no pressure for a new contract.
    He was rushing before 2010 when Bosh would become a FA, not when his contract was about to expire.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Yes it is. When you're given more chances and guaranteed, you'll take more risk. Colangelo, by ocnstatnly being on his contract year, will continue to make moves that fall outside what his main vision is because he's doing it to save his job. Like for example, we could've had good young players and have a better future if we waited but instead, he tried to go after guys like Nash because he wanted to make the playoffs(even though we'd be like 8th seed) as a way to save his job.
    well we will definitely have to agree to disagree then. it sounds like you guys would like for us to give him an NHL style 10 year contract so that he is never tempted to make short term moves. even if those types of deals existed they probably wouldn't be offered to people who are leading failing franchises. success comes before security, not the other way around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    BC has the tendency to make rushed moves when he's pressured to save his job.
    so do all human beings. the key is to not find yourself in a position where your job needs saving.
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-10-2012 at 09:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    He was rushing before 2010 when Bosh would become a FA, not when his contract was about to expire.
    so we've got a GM who is good, and patient, so long as he has numerous years left on his deal and no key players whose contracts expire in the next year or two. other than that he's great. these are not good things people.
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 12-10-2012 at 09:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I'm positive BC sold his rushed rebuild (and I agree he didn't put it that way).

    The stupidity on their part is that they bought it. There hasn't been enough time and as we know the build had to be more thorough, not half measures. It was ludicrous that anyone actually believed this year's team should have been or could have been a playoff team this quickly. We weren't just a piece or two away.

    That's why I am not upset AT ALL with how this season has gone. I didn't expect anything and didn't care about getting to the playoffs only to be swept in the first round by the Heat.
    I'm not bothered by how this season is going either, I'm actually happy because it should mean the end of BC's time here. Although I am afraid of the moves he may make to turn it around.

    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I don't think the firebc.com site has a solitary clue what they want. Just to ***** mainly.
    I'm sure it will provide MLSE with multiple different takes, many of them being rants. But there will be some well thought out ones also. As you said above, ownership bought what BC sold two years ago, I don't see trying to change how they think as a bad thing.

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