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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    The GM should not listen to the fan base. He should make decisions based upon reports and recommendations of scouts in accordance with his plan for the organization. Fans are typically shortsighted, emotional, and ignorant of many facts and factors.
    You're right. Fans can be emotional and very ignorant.

    But you missed the point. He did, in a way, cave into fan sentiment. The fans didn't want to trade Reyes. I remember how fans even brought "Don't trade Reyes, resign him" signs to games. There were even articles in the NY times and stuff about how the fanbase didn't want Reyes traded. This was a factor to Sandy not trading him that mid-season, because the higher ups already knew they weren't going to re-sign him.

    If the fans had kept their mouth shut, they could have traded Reyes and gotten a great prospect (another Wheeler so to speak). But in that case, the fans used their senseless emotion. This is what upsets me about this fanbase.

  2. #122
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    Yep, it's our fault.

    We are terrible at running the Mets, we all should be fired.


    People are losing patience, they ask us to wait, but haven't done anything to instill confidence in them. You can't blame everyone for being upset.
    The Wilpons don't have a track record of producing champions.

    I have hope that Alderson has a plan and it will work out, but I am extremely skeptical, extremely, just because of the Wilpons.

  3. #123
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    Its our of all faults, how dare we want our team to win games, how dare we get impatient with a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 7 years. Patience, Patience, Patience, in 2016 we might have a shot at meaningful games in september.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg42 View Post
    You're right. Fans can be emotional and very ignorant.

    But you missed the point. He did, in a way, cave into fan sentiment. The fans didn't want to trade Reyes. I remember how fans even brought "Don't trade Reyes, resign him" signs to games. There were even articles in the NY times and stuff about how the fanbase didn't want Reyes traded. This was a factor to Sandy not trading him that mid-season, because the higher ups already knew they weren't going to re-sign him.

    If the fans had kept their mouth shut, they could have traded Reyes and gotten a great prospect (another Wheeler so to speak). But in that case, the fans used their senseless emotion. This is what upsets me about this fanbase.

    Is this on the level? The fans' senseless emotion kept Sandy from trading Reyes?

    For a second I thought i was reading "The Onion."
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Is this on the level? The fans' senseless emotion kept Sandy from trading Reyes?

    For a second I thought i was reading "The Onion."
    I'm saying that the fans didn't help. I remember that mid-season very well. Fans brought signs saying "don't trade Reyes, re-sign him". There were articles all over the papers about fan reactions on Reyes, and it made it clear that the fans didn't want Reyes traded, and about how much they wanted to see him win a batting title as a Met (as if it was more important to see a Met winning a batting title rather than strategize for the future).

    I remember people in this board saying "OMG don't trade him, we have to see a Met finally win a batting title, etc". That fan sentiment was all over.

    I have to believe that it played a role in them not trading Reyes because they knew very well that they weren't going to re-sign him, and they really were (and still are) trying to give the impression of keeping the fans happy. It made fans happy and filled them with hope when that trading deadline passed and Reyes was still here. It was a false sense of hope. I have to wonder what would have happened if the fans had kept shut.

    I do care about winning games, but NOT about winning an extra 4-6 games in August to get 75 wins (4th place). If we're in a losing season, I could care less about winning games that season, and I'd want to strategize for the future. Reyes would have gotten us back another Wheeler type prospect. Wright could have gotten us back something equally good. Knowing the Wilpons won't spend, this is the better strategy.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg42 View Post
    I'm saying that the fans didn't help. I remember that mid-season very well. Fans brought signs saying "don't trade Reyes, re-sign him". There were articles all over the papers about fan reactions on Reyes, and it made it clear that the fans didn't want Reyes traded, and about how much they wanted to see him win a batting title as a Met (as if it was more important to see a Met winning a batting title rather than strategize for the future).

    I remember people in this board saying "OMG don't trade him, we have to see a Met finally win a batting title, etc". That fan sentiment was all over.

    I have to believe that it played a role in them not trading Reyes because they knew very well that they weren't going to re-sign him, and they really were (and still are) trying to give the impression of keeping the fans happy. It made fans happy and filled them with hope when that trading deadline passed and Reyes was still here. It was a false sense of hope. I have to wonder what would have happened if the fans had kept shut.

    I do care about winning games, but NOT about winning an extra 4-6 games in August to get 75 wins (4th place). If we're in a losing season, I could care less about winning games that season, and I'd want to strategize for the future. Reyes would have gotten us back another Wheeler type prospect. Wright could have gotten us back something equally good. Knowing the Wilpons won't spend, this is the better strategy.

    Right. "Don't trade him. Re-sign him." So if fans had any kind of an impact, Reyes would still be a Met.

    To your point, the fans did play a role in the team holding onto Reyes but not in the sense that you were thinking. Sandy and friends were concerned that if they traded Reyes mid season, they'd be looking at a ton of empty seats the rest of way. That reason and that reason alone was why Reyes was not traded.

    Now, are you going to fault fans for not being willing to pay good money to see a very boring Reyes-less, Beltran-less, K-Rod-less, Davis-less team in 2011? I think not.

    On the other hand, could you blame Sandy and friends for being so myopic that they would care more about short term concerns rather than long-term benefits?

    Absolutely. Alderson and friends deserve 100 percent of the blame. Fans: Zero.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootleg42 View Post
    Knowing the Wilpons won't spend, this is the better strategy.
    If you know the Wilpons you also know they care more about getting every last cent out of everything than the future. They kept Reyes for whatever extra attendance he'd have gotten and then lied they intended to keep him.

    In short they aren't interested in winning, but need to deceive the fans into thinking they are so people will continue to spend money.

    How is that the fans fault?

  8. #128
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    The Nationals will be ******** on the league for years to come. We might go without a playoff berth until Wright retires.

  9. #129
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    How is there any hope ?

    Obi-wan is our only hope.

    Mets fans suck at Star Wars.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Right. "Don't trade him. Re-sign him." So if fans had any kind of an impact, Reyes would still be a Met.

    To your point, the fans did play a role in the team holding onto Reyes but not in the sense that you were thinking. Sandy and friends were concerned that if they traded Reyes mid season, they'd be looking at a ton of empty seats the rest of way. That reason and that reason alone was why Reyes was not traded.

    Now, are you going to fault fans for not being willing to pay good money to see a very boring Reyes-less, Beltran-less, K-Rod-less, Davis-less team in 2011? I think not.
    In a way yes I will, because they shouldn't have cared about that 2011 season. They shouldn't have bought tickets for those August/September games. We were terrible and going no where then.

    Again, I don't care about extra wins in a 70-75ish win 4th place season. I care about strategy. Sometimes I get the feeling that fans here care irrationally so much about those few extra wins in a 4th place season more than wanting a long term strategy that can get you contention.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    On the other hand, could you blame Sandy and friends for being so myopic that they would care more about short term concerns rather than long-term benefits?

    Absolutely. Alderson and friends deserve 100 percent of the blame. Fans: Zero.
    I put huge blame on Sandy and Wilpon. Wilpon should be spending. Josh Hamilton is a beast, and we should be going after him. King Felix can be had if the right trade comes along. Joe Mauer is not going to be a Twin forever, and we can trade to get him. All this requires Wilpon to spend, and he doesn't want to do it. Therefore I put a HUGE blame on him. Wilpon is the big problem.

    But the fans don't help either. They think irrationally and don't think in strategy. By being irrational, you allow Wilpon to play you all. If fans had stayed shut back in 2011, Sandy could have probably traded Reyes and gotten back another Wheeler type player. Instead Wilpon needed to play a PR game to keep you fans from getting upset, hence the reason they didn't trade Reyes and acted like they were going to re-sign him and build a great team, etc. And you fans felt for it. I hope you loved those few extra wins in 2011 and Reyes's batting title, because it didn't do anything for me. I was upset we didn't trade him for another Wheeler type player.

    And you fans got fooled again with Wright's re-signing. Wilpon is only going to spend money on Wright and nothing else. I can see this from a mile away. He only re-signed Wright to keep you all happy. From here on out, it's going to be the 4th place Mets featuring David Wright. It will stink, and I'm not going to be going to the games just to see Wright. We're stuck with a Wright in his 30's playing with a 4th place team. We could have traded Reyes and Wright, and had gotten back pieces that could have come up in 2014 to play with Wheeler, Harvey, and the rest of the young pieces we have. It would have been a legit hope.
    Last edited by bootleg42; 12-12-2012 at 08:43 PM.

  11. #131
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    There really is three options here:

    1.) You can spend yourself into contention
    2.) You can trade assets and try and build up your base (prospects/young players)
    3.) try some hybrid of the two. Like the sox are trying.

    The problem is sandy hasn't really done anything, prolonging the rebuild.

    In fact, the situation has actually deteriorated since he has taken over as the talent from the previous regime was wasted, either getting old and ineffective or leaving via FA.

    Where do you go from here? Well what you do is recognize that past mistakes have put you in a position where your clock has been pushed back. You move Wright and Dickey. You judge the market for Niese and Ike.

    You then start signing the buy low/bounce-back candidates like Haren, Madson, Youkilis, Chavez, Sizemore, Reynolds, Liriano, McCarthy, etc...

    Preferably, with the money that would have been earmarked to the likes of Dickey and wright. If they are performing well you look to move them at the deadline.

    You then rinse and repeat until you have a solid foundation in which to add to. From there, you go out and add pieces like the Hamiltons of the world. Or the prince Fielders.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Right. "Don't trade him. Re-sign him." So if fans had any kind of an impact, Reyes would still be a Met.
    Agreed! Beat me to it. There wasn't any crazy psychology going on. They probably ****ed up not trading Reyes. They should have given him a serious contract offer ahead of time -- its not like the winning bid was much higher. In how they handled David Wright, it looks like they took notice.
    The Michigan team bus was stuck outside Notre Dame stadium for hours after somebody painted a 20 yard line in the parking lot

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by boller4prez View Post
    There really is three options here:

    1.) You can spend yourself into contention
    2.) You can trade assets and try and build up your base (prospects/young players)
    3.) try some hybrid of the two. Like the sox are trying.
    The Sox, Phils, Rangers, Yanks, Angels, Dodgers are all doing #3.

    The key is to not waste money in your down years, and go all in when the time is right.

    It means don't try to spend yourself into contention, its spend your money once you are in contention from building up your base.
    The Michigan team bus was stuck outside Notre Dame stadium for hours after somebody painted a 20 yard line in the parking lot

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayamtion View Post
    Obi-wan is our only hope.

    Mets fans suck at Star Wars.
    These are not the fans you are looking for.
    Go Grab My Belt

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    Agreed! Beat me to it. There wasn't any crazy psychology going on. They probably ****ed up not trading Reyes. They should have given him a serious contract offer ahead of time -- its not like the winning bid was much higher. In how they handled David Wright, it looks like they took notice.
    Re-signing Wright was a huge mistake and I'm glad they didn't re-sign Reyes (he never repeated his batting title year).

    We had to sell them while their value was high. We didn't do that. Now we're stuck in 4th place for at least 4-5 years unless Wilpon opens the checkbook.

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