Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,584
    vCash
    1500

    Back when complete games were expected

    I remember back in the 60's when a pitcher was regularly taken out by the 7th. or 8th. inning people would say, 'he is ok but he can't finish most of the time'.

    Now if a pitcher goes 7 or 8 all the time he is a stud and if he goes 9 it makes Baseball Tonight headlines and fans are jumping up and down. It used to be expected. Some complete game totals for some great pitchers.

    Steve Carlton 254
    Don Drysdale 167
    Bob Gibson 255
    Whitey Ford 156
    Noln Ryan 222

    That is 1054 complete games by five pitchers!

    I am sure someone can come along and explain how those guys really stunk and would not even be playing on any of todays teams and how much better today's athletes are. Not to mention they pitched against players who would not bat .125 if they played today. lol
    "Well, that kind of puts a damper on even a Yankee win."
    -- Yankees announcer Phil Rizzuto after reading a bulletin that Pope Paul VI had died

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    170
    vCash
    1500
    This thread went well

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Woodstock
    Posts
    2,238
    vCash
    500
    Times have changed, now if this was a thread about how maybe teams are babying pitchers too much, then we'd have a real discussion. Personally I do think there would be way fewer injuries if guys were allowed to throw a lot more. guys used to pitch 20-30 complete games in a season at times. Now, if a guy like Verlander has a CG with 120 pitches, Leyland gets roasted for risking injury to the guy even though I think he could do it every game if he had too.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    35,644
    vCash
    1000
    Are you trying to have a discussion or something?

    Because you never asked a question or anything.


    Let's compare these guys to the generations before them why don't we?


    Steve Carlton 254
    Don Drysdale 167
    Bob Gibson 255
    Whitey Ford 156
    Noln Ryan 222

    vs

    Cy Young 749
    Pud Galvin 646
    Kim Keefe 554
    Kid Nichols 532
    Walter Johnson 531

    Carlton's 254 is 75th most all time.


    How do the players you mentioned compare to the generation before them?

    Obviously the game has changed, and it isn't he pitchers fault.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    35,644
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by JaysLeafs98 View Post
    Times have changed, now if this was a thread about how maybe teams are babying pitchers too much, then we'd have a real discussion. Personally I do think there would be way fewer injuries if guys were allowed to throw a lot more. guys used to pitch 20-30 complete games in a season at times. Now, if a guy like Verlander has a CG with 120 pitches, Leyland gets roasted for risking injury to the guy even though I think he could do it every game if he had too.
    And he probably could. You can handle whatever you are trained to handle. If he got used to throwing 150 high effort pitches in a night, he could probably handle it for a decade or more.

    But the game is more specialized now, and the evolution of the bullpen has helped to cause a simmer in hitting for awhile (although it has since gone up and down again since).

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    5,930
    vCash
    1500
    I agree with recent bullpen usage for the most part. The two glaring exceptions are the use of a designated closer in the 9th inning no matter what and the quick hooks with teams' aces. The latter is mostly a symptom of the flawed fixation on 100 pitches. If your ace is pitching less than 230-240 innings in the NL (without getting injured) you're doing something wrong. In the AL i would argue they should be getting 250 innings a year or you're screwing up as a manager.

    Of course this is very broadly speaking. Not every ace is created equal, and sometimes guys like Mark Buehrle aren't exactly aces but are able to be equally effective for virtually as many pitches as you let him have.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Woodstock
    Posts
    2,238
    vCash
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    And he probably could. You can handle whatever you are trained to handle. If he got used to throwing 150 high effort pitches in a night, he could probably handle it for a decade or more.

    But the game is more specialized now, and the evolution of the bullpen has helped to cause a simmer in hitting for awhile (although it has since gone up and down again since).
    I don't disagree, but i think a 7 or 8 man bullpen is a little extreme, on most teams half the guys have no business being in the big leagues. Even a 4 man rotation was better than 5 in my opinion and for me its the reason my Jays fell apart last year. They started with a 4 man rotation and then as soon as they went to 5 they lost 3 guys in 4 days.. I think coming through the minor leagues they should start training guys to go deeper into ball games and build up their strength to more than a 100 pitch effort. If you have them throwing 150-160 per start in the minors, they may be better suited to throw 110-120 in the bigs

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    4,083
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by JaysLeafs98 View Post
    Even a 4 man rotation was better than 5 in my opinion and for me its the reason my Jays fell apart last year. They started with a 4 man rotation and then as soon as they went to 5 they lost 3 guys in 4 days
    What the hell? lol. The Blue Jays played until around April 22 with a 4 man rotation because they didn't have a 5th man due to Dustin McGowan getting injured at the end of spring training. They called up Joel Carreno to make a spot start for the third game of the season and used off-days as buffers for 2 weeks to maintain a regular 4 days rest for each starting pitcher. The injuries were merely flukes or due to poor training, but hardly the result of a 4 man rotation + off days for a couple of weeks..

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Puente, CA
    Posts
    7,000
    vCash
    1500
    The steroid era really chewed up pitchers, so it was understandable why their innings decreased and why relief roles became much more compartmentalized. Now that ridiculous era is over. Pitchers are dominating again and should be pitching deeper into games. Relievers should be allowed to pitch more than one inning. I'm not saying that we should abuse pitchers and let them pitch 280+ innings with 25 complete games again, but I think most starters in the prime of their careers are perfectly capable of pitching 200-230 innings yearly with about five complete games or so. Pitch counts are nonsense. 100 pitches is too stupidly arbitrary because some pitchers are gassed at 90 pitches whereas others can consistently toss 120 or 130 pitches every time out. Looks like managers and coaches have also forgotten the concept that starters are starters and relievers are relievers because starters are better pitchers in general than relievers. It does peeve me at times when a #1 or #2 caliber starter who is showing no signs of fatigue is removed because of some arbitrary number of 100 pitches that he's approaching for a lesser talented reliever who then proceeds to cough up the lead.
    Last edited by dodgerdave; 12-09-2012 at 07:03 PM.

    Future Hall of Shamers:
    (1) B.A.L.C.O. Barroids (2) Mark McJuicer (3) Jose Chem-seco (4) Rafael Palmeiroids (5) Ken Chem-initi (6) Jason Gi-andro (7) Ryan Fraud (8) Muscle Melk (9) Woman-Ram (10) Shammy Sosa (11) Roger Clear-mens (12) A-Roid

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    52,054
    vCash
    1500
    the game has changed simple as that
    30 Team Stadium Checklist: 11 to go

    1) Yankees 2) Orioles 3) Rays 4) Red Sox 5) Mets 6) Braves 7) Phillies 8) Nationals 9) Marlins 10) Pirates 11) Padres 12) Astros 13) Mariners 14) Twins 15) Cubs 16) White Sox 17) Cardinals 18) Indians 19) Tigers 20) Royals (May 2014)


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    A Phillies Phan in Ocean Twp & BKLYN
    Posts
    5,086
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Clown View Post
    This thread went well
    I like it very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crucis View Post
    Parity is about equality of opportunity, not equality of results.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    27,343
    vCash
    500
    People want to protect their investments. Thats why.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    152
    vCash
    1500
    People are pu$$ys now a days... They should change a quality start to 6.1 innings

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    West Side
    Posts
    4,130
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 7chuck7 View Post
    I remember back in the 60's when a pitcher was regularly taken out by the 7th. or 8th. inning people would say, 'he is ok but he can't finish most of the time'.

    Now if a pitcher goes 7 or 8 all the time he is a stud and if he goes 9 it makes Baseball Tonight headlines and fans are jumping up and down. It used to be expected. Some complete game totals for some great pitchers.

    Steve Carlton 254
    Don Drysdale 167
    Bob Gibson 255
    Whitey Ford 156
    Noln Ryan 222

    That is 1054 complete games by five pitchers!

    I am sure someone can come along and explain how those guys really stunk and would not even be playing on any of todays teams and how much better today's athletes are. Not to mention they pitched against players who would not bat .125 if they played today. lol

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •