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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Schmooze View Post
    Great and often underlooked point. It has absolutely helped give us a higher standard of living than anywhere else in the world. However I'd argue that we don't have to sacrifice our high standard of living to change it. There are certainly ways around everything.

    For intance the Saudis are easily bought, so keep giving them money to keep oil prices aritifically low, and take out the military aspect of it. Force companies like apple and every one that outsources that it is illegal to use child labor, and make their only option bringing jobs back here. I'm giving some bland alternatives, but you get the idea.
    The benefits the Saudis give us is due to our world cop role. A rich nation that have a smaller population then Iraq and Iran ( a old enemy with a different sect of Islam). They feared Iraq so much during the first gulf war, that they allow US troops in their county. A action that cause them internal problems and a bigger problem for the US in the form of Osoma's Al-Quada. The naval fleet sitting in their gulf is for them as well us. You can add Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Oman to the list of countries that like having the US navy in the persian gulf. Also add Europe and Japan to that list.

    If another superpower was able to supersede us as world cop, they will quickly give them those benefits we enjoy to maintain the peace on the Persian waters. Good-bye cheap oil. Some much of our needs and goods are shipped, flow or driven from somewhere else that higher gas cost would mean a higher cost of living.

    How would you force a company not to use slave or children to manufacture their products? Raising the salaries over there would be reflected in our prices here. We killed our manufacture sector so we can get cheapier things and higher profit. I just don't see american biting themselves in the arse financally to support a cause million miles from home. Hell, we can't hardly do that for each other. We have groups here who wouldn't cut the waste out of our defense budget to feed, clothes, educate others americans. Try asking them to paid more for things to uplift foreign workers.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patsfan56 View Post
    the point this thread has made though is that the relationship between what we get and what we pay for has changed significantly. Someone in the US Government has forgotten that part of the Federal Aquisition Regulation where we are supposed to contract for "best value". Someone apparently read that to mean "Best value as determined by a drunk monkey".
    I so freakin agree with you man. So many companies have screw us with fraud and plain old thievery. That drunken monkey who (congress, at time vice president) determined those things are often in bed with the contractors who get the deal.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalf View Post
    I believe we need a strong military force to defeat and intimidate our enemies
    And who are our enemies?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    And who are our enemies?
    Those brown people in the middle east are usually what people mean when they just throw out the word "enemies" without backing it up by a damn thing.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasMan View Post
    And who are our enemies?
    Someones the media have ignore,the Russia and China are rapidly building up their naval and military forces. China with it's size, and tech they stolen from us will be dangerous foe. China have also expanded their connects with nations across the world, including south america, africa and the carribean islands.

    Short term we have to worry about terrorism, but long term the Chinese.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Someones the media have ignore,the Russia and China are rapidly building up their naval and military forces. China with it's size, and tech they stolen from us will be dangerous foe. China have also expanded their connects with nations across the world, including south america, africa and the carribean islands.

    Short term we have to worry about terrorism, but long term the Chinese.
    And where is this information coming from?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmaster52 View Post
    And where is this information coming from?
    google China military and you will get tons of infromation on their naval ambition, no one has stolen more of our military tech, business copyrights then the chinese. Their economical expansion into africa. No, I am not pulling this out my arse. It's a crying shame more people don't know this.
    Last edited by WES445; 12-16-2012 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    To be the fox in the hen's house

    Do you think that maybe our standard of living was brought by having the biggest military in the world? Our abililty to bribe or change other country's leaders to ones who bow down to our business concerns, which is back by this large military force. Would we be able to command what we, USA, want from others if another country or countries had bigger forces? Our spheres of influences around the world is back by the largest army, not sweet talk or others desires to hang with us. Military bases in Korea keeps the peace. Our persence in Japan, reminds the Chinese to watch their manners torwards Japan and other countries near them, like Vietnam. Who to said, that our bases in Europe don't keep the peace. Those bases have enable Europe economies to grow without being burden by military expenditures. Saud Arabia seems to enjoy our presense there as well as other small, but oil rich countries circling the area.

    I am often conflicted over our foreign policies, especially when we had been brutal in getting what we want. Our standard of living is arguablely the best in the world, but was it paid for by things we now protest against. The Jack Nickelson's rant in the movie "For A Few Good Men" closing moments with " Do you really what to know the truth?" and when Tom Cruise pushs him, he replys " You can't handle the truth". I often believe our foreign policies is like that. We want cheap things, we want cheap gas for our cars, we want to believe our aims are pure in the world, but the reality of achieveing those standard would sicken us.
    i don't buy this notion. other countries (i.e. China, Brazil, South Korea, and Germany) do just fine without invading other countries, giving billions to other countries, and having military bases in other countries.


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOBolous View Post
    i don't buy this notion. other countries (i.e. China, Brazil, South Korea, and Germany) do just fine without invading other countries, giving billions to other countries, and having military bases in other countries.
    Germany and south Korea, depend on us being their world cop. Whether as a deter to their enemies or protect their oil coming out of perisan gulf. If we pulled our troops out of south Korea, north Korea would be banging at their door. Are you really comparing our standard of living with Brazil and China? Rail system, education, poverty levels and size of their middle class? We have the largest consumer base in the world (we consume a large percentage of the world resources and product), that china depend on to sell their products to. Our culture dominate the world. You don't have to buy it to benefit from it. With China and Russia building up their forces, we must maintain ours. Getting rid of the corruption, and waste in our military expenditures as well as in other department will go along way in reducing our debt.

    What we have now, is a result of our foreign policies dating back to colonial times. I don't condone it, but accept it. It's how empire operate. Every country you mention, don't have the size of our middle class, reach and influences that america has.

    Do you honestly believe if China or Russia were the top dog, we could maintain our standard of living? Did anybody within Rome's influence, back in their day, enjoy a high standard of living like Rome? How long did the Azetec enjoyed their standard of living after the spainards came? China, when the Europe came? Even the top scientist Steven Hawking jokes, we shouldn't seek contact with space alien, because a superior forces alway destory the lesser forces for resources.

    And you are being alittle naive when it comes how bribery is apart of foreign trade. Every westernize country does it when dealing with third world companies. We have forms of bribery in our politic system. It's universal. I will look up the sixty minutes program that talks about foreign business policies. Jesus, what are they teaching you kids in school.
    Last edited by WES445; 12-16-2012 at 10:48 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES445 View Post
    Germany and south Korea, depend on us being their world cop. Whether as a deter to their enemies or protect their oil coming out of perisan gulf. If we pulled our troops out of south Korea, north Korea would be banging at their door. Are you really comparing our standard of living with Brazil and China? Rail system, education, poverty levels and size of their middle class? We have the largest consumer base in the world (we consume a large percentage of the world resources and product), that china depend on to sell their products to. Our culture dominate the world. You don't have to buy it to benefit from it. With China and Russia building up their forces, we must maintain ours. Getting rid of the corruption, and waste in our military expenditures as well as in other department will go along way in reducing our debt.

    What we have now, is a result of our foreign policies dating back to colonial times. I don't condone it, but accept it. It's how empire operate. Every country you mention, don't have the size of our middle class, reach and influences that america has.

    Do you honestly believe if China or Russia were the top dog, we could maintain our standard of living? Did anybody within Rome's influence, back in their day, enjoy a high standard of living like Rome? How long did the Azetec enjoyed their standard of living after the spainards came? China, when the Europe came? Even the top scientist Steven Hawking jokes, we shouldn't seek contact with space alien, because a superior forces alway destory the lesser forces for resources.

    And you are being alittle naive when it comes how bribery is apart of foreign trade. Every westernize country does it when dealing with third world companies. We have forms of bribery in our politic system. It's universal. I will look up the sixty minutes program that talks about foreign business policies. Jesus, what are they teaching you kids in school.
    So we're currently a violent empire trying to dominate the globe, that's a good thing, and we should keep it up? Just trying to make sure I understand were you're coming from.
    People who think the least powerful members of society are responsible for most of its problems are deluded, at best.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    So we're currently a violent empire trying to dominate the globe, that's a good thing, and we should keep it up? Just trying to make sure I understand were you're coming from.
    As I have stated earlier, that I don't like how we became a violent empire (count the numbers of wars, small and large, we had since ww II and it is more then most countries) that dominate the globe (military bases, world currency is the dollar, everybody knows who Micheal Jordan is) but how do you get off that threadmill without losing your standard of living? Being a heartless, ruthless bastard when it comes to foreign affairs.

    We all said we want a more moralistic foreign policies, but would that work in a immoral world? President Carter tried to steer our foreign policies away from these corrupt ways, and was label a weak president. We wound up electing a Dirty Harry quoting president over him. I think deep down we want to be top dog in the world, who gets want he wants at any price.

    Let's said we quit, today, being the world cop, top arms dealers, stop killing nations leaders who we can't bribe and pull back overt and covert agents from other countries. Basically stop being top dog, wouldn't someone else fill that void? Like we did after the British empire faded away. China deeply believe they will be the future alpha nation to replace the USA in dominating world affairs. Would we benefit from their raise to power? Russia?

    That is why I stated earlier that no country within Rome influences, in their time, benefited a standard of living similar to Rome.

    So my main thrust is how do we get off this treadmill we are on without losing our standard of living? How do we change our leadership culture to do this? Everything else I have stated was accepting what it took to get us here. The moral price of having our standard of living, no pollyanna history taught in school. When it comes to foreign affairs from the native americans to now, we are heartless bastards. How do we change that?
    Last edited by WES445; 12-20-2012 at 02:25 AM.

  12. #42
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    Wes, something you may find interesting. In our 230+ years as a nation we have been at war for just over 200 years. Now this counts the Cold War but even without that its over 150. This nation loves to fight and we don't seem to care what the cost is, either financially or personally.
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  13. #43
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    my bad
    Last edited by WES445; 12-19-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    Wes, something you may find interesting. In our 230+ years as a nation we have been at war for just over 200 years. Now this counts the Cold War but even without that its over 150. This nation loves to fight and we don't seem to care what the cost is, either financially or personally.
    Throw in the Drug War and war on terrorism as well. Both allow our nation to do heartless, ruthless things to people while making a profit on some level. Also all the wars we weren't directly involved in, but made bank in by selling arms.

    I just don't see how we are going to change with such a long history behind us.
    Last edited by WES445; 12-20-2012 at 02:21 AM.

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