Game 20: Dallas Mavericks at Houston Rockets

[Skizzik]

This is a ridiculous argument at this point honestly. Because the only way we prove it either way is if the right situation ever came along to prove the point where they enter a postseason as favorites and lose, or enter it and win...either way with Mayo as the best player.

I won't pretend Mayo is the best player in the league, but I have no doubt a team could win with Mayo as it's best player. You think it's ridiculous to bring up a team like the 2011 Mavs. I think it's ridiculous you're comparing a guy who JUST turned 25 to a battle hardened, veteran star who didn't win it all until he was 32. Don't forget...Dirk was 25 in 2003. Mayo has a lot of time to grow and mature just like Dirk did. 2003 Dirk was not carrying any team to a championship. He was just another good, all-star quality player.

[ThuglifeJ]

It's not a ridiculous argument it's just there's no right answer, strictly opinions.

The only thing is you really have nothing backing you up. When has a player of Mayos level ever won anything as the best player.

Yes he's young but so his roof is limited more than Dirk's was. Dirk was and is 7 ft tall and cant be gaurded literally because of it. Mayo is 6'4" and a SG without hope of a post game because size. How can he win as "the man". When I say win I mean it all.

this is by no means hating on Mayo I love what he brings, but I dont understand this living in the moment saying he could win it all as the best player? When has a SG ever won it as the best player besides Jordan with the Bulls and Kobe's last 2 rings. And that's MJ and Kobe 2 dominant SGs who have complete games.

[ThuglifeJ]

You're just being way too lenient. Give me a lineup with Mayo as best player. I'll actually try to help you

okay let's try..

Raymond Felton
OJ MAYO
Gerald Wallace
Kris Humphris
Deandre Jordan

early bench- Ray Allen, Terry, Joakim Noah, JR Smith,

I went through every position and tried to pick a player JUST below Mayo. That's the best I came up with I just don't see that winning.

[Skizzik]

You're just being way too lenient. Give me a lineup with Mayo as best player. I'll actually try to help you

okay let's try..

Raymond Felton
OJ MAYO
Gerald Wallace
Kris Humphris
Deandre Jordan

early bench- Ray Allen, Terry, Joakim Noah, JR Smith,

I went through every position and tried to pick a player JUST below Mayo. That's the best I came up with I just don't see that winning.

I'd argue this is a HORRIBLE lineup. Have you even seen Terry's numbers this year? He's even worse than the inconsistent crap he was bringing here.

Also, in the post above the one I quoted, you asked when has a team ever won with a player like Mayo as their best player...I don't personally rate any player notably superior to Mayo on the Pistons 2004 team.

What makes this all impossible to predict is the fact it's impossible to predict which players will land where, who will get drafted, which prospects will work out, what injuries will happen. These things all factor in to the possibility.

Imagine Mayo continues to improve and grow wiser for the next 5 years, 30 is still prime years for an NBA player. Then whatever team he's on drafts a top 3 pick and say they already have another all-star quality player on their roster. It's possible that roster could be good enough. Trying to pick from current rosters doesn't work because any roster you put together isn't realistic, unless you choose only FA's...but what team is going to have an empty roster this summer?

[ThuglifeJ]

I already said besides the 2004 Pistons and in which at THIS POINT Billups, Ben Wallace were definitely better than Mayo, Hamilton Prince Sheed were equal if not better if going by current Mayo this year.

And you cant do this what if Mayo continues to grow, what if he doesn't? Even if he grows his ceiling isn't championship as the man level.

And if you have a better lineup post it let's just go by current era since this is the era Mayo is in. Heat/Lakers/Thunder/Clippers will most definitely be at the top for the next few years which you claim Mayos peak.

[Skizzik]

I already said besides the 2004 Pistons and in which at THIS POINT Billups, Ben Wallace were definitely better than Mayo, Hamilton Prince Sheed were equal if not better if going by current Mayo this year.

And you cant do this what if Mayo continues to grow, what if he doesn't? Even if he grows his ceiling isn't championship as the man level.

And if you have a better lineup post it let's just go by current era since this is the era Mayo is in. Heat/Lakers/Thunder/Clippers will most definitely be at the top for the next few years which you claim Mayos peak.

First off, prime age for an NBA player starts generally at the age of 27 or 28 (as obviously it isn't an exact science). So, that basically eliminates your Heat/Lakers/Thunder/Clippers idea. Lakers...they MIGHT have Dwight and who else? 40 year old Kobe? Thunder will likely still be good. Heat will be on the downhill side, hell, Wade is already injured a lot and has already begun to decline.

And you tell me I can't assume Mayo will continue to grow...so I will assume no Clippers player grows either, because that's logical, right? Ignoring the whole absurdity of that argument, how many players regress at 25? It's not like Mayo's talent came out of nowhere. He just was never the right fit in Memphis. It's not like he never had a single good game in Memphis either.

So, once again, it's pointless to use current rosters. No team you put together with Mayo as the best player THIS YEAR would likely be able to overcome the Heat or Thunder and likely not the Clippers. The Lakers just have no cohesion, so I'm sure you could beat them.

The whole point of the argument isn't supposed to be about THIS YEAR, I said it's certainly possible a team could win with Mayo as the man, given the right circumstances. Part of that requires NATURAL growth as a player as well as a roster that supported him.

Last, Ben Wallace was an elite defender...but was one of the worst offensive players you could ever find on a basketball court. He also peaked at a time where elite centers were few and far between. Wallace's best years were during Shaq's reign and before Howard. It's impossible not to take that in to account.

He just didn't have a lot of one on one challenges, and he's likely lucky because of that, because Shaq proves how easy to exploit Wallace's size was for a center who had a real offensive game. Shaq's playoff career versus Wallace consisted of him scoring 21.9ppg in 35.3mpg on 61.2% shooting. Not exactly elite numbers. I will give you Shaq was basically unstoppable, but the argument is that Wallace is an elite defensive center, right? So you'd think he'd at least be able to have more of an impact than letting him shoot 61.2%.

So, given the chance, sorry, but in the current NBA, I'm taking Mayo over prime Wallace. Wallace would get abused with the current lineup of centers and power forwards that rotate to center: Lopez, Bynum (when healthy), Howard, Love, Gortat, Jordan, etc. They're all too big and too good at shooting or too athletic. I loved watching Wallace play, but you're just playing devil's advocate if you really think he'd be nearly as impactful now as when he was at his best, in a league with so few offensive weapons at center.

And as for Billups, I'll give you that one, for now. You can think what you want, but I'll go with the history of the league over your idea of Mayo suddenly regressing. There's absolutely nothing to suggest Mayo will suddenly decline. He isn't known for injuries and he's a good shooter for a shooting guard. There's nothing out there suggesting his numbers are fluky or unsustainable.

Above all, understand this. I'm not telling you Mayo will EVER win a championship, as the man or otherwise. But I also thinks it's crazy to say never about a talented shooting guard who's only 25. He's not a top 10 player or even top 20 player in the league. But can I imagine all the pieces falling together for him one year? Sure.

[ThuglifeJ]

Okay well I didn't know you were playing the 'he'll improve and peak in a few years from now' card. I thought we were talking about Mayo right now.

I think most would take a prime Ben Wallace over a current OJ Mayo. I'll give you that he can definitely improve but it's not promised or anything. You can't assume he's going to get better, I never assumed he would regress either.

I stand by my argument tho that no team could win it all with OJ Mayo as the best player on the team. Maybe as the #1 Offensive option but not best overall player on the team.

I understand your argument and I do agree he will get better and never had a good fit in Memphis, but I want to hear other's opinions now because I am 100% confident no team would ever win it all with Mayo as the best player on the team unless a miracle.


anyway yea Heat will decline (Wade, Bosh) but who says they wont get someone else or make moves? Who said Lebron wont be an even bigger loser and go to LA with Howard and Duhon (joke). I still want to see a lineup you can propose with Mayo as the best player.


also I do think Mayo will definitely get better, but I also think you're putting his potential too high. Size matters, he's not big or tall enough to ever be a Dominant player which you need to win it all as the best player.. Iverson is the only exception, but he didnt win it all either as best player (not saying that's easy to do) and Iverson is one of a kind. Speed of point guard which Mayo doesnt have.

[ThuglifeJ]

you should post a poll in the NBA forum

[Skizzik]

you should post a poll in the NBA forum

I wouldn't post a poll on something like this. It's really not that big of a deal to me.

And on the topic of who has and hasn't won as the best player...you talk like a bunch of people have won as the best player. I'll remind you, since 2000, the Lakers, Spurs, Heat, Pistons, Celtics and Mavs are the ONLY teams to have won the championship. And that was a diverse decade. Most decades were even worse.

These are the teams that have NEVER won a championship:
Charlotte - Bobcats (0 appearances)
Charlotte/New Orleans - Hornets (0 appearances)
Indiana - Pacers (Won ABA 3 times) (1 appearance in NBA: 2000)
Brooklyn - Nets (2 appearances: 2002-2003)
New Orleans/Utah - Jazz (2 appearances: 1997-1998)
Toronto - Raptors (0 appearances)
Minnesota - Timberwolves (0 appearances)
Cleveland- Cavaliers (1 appearance: 2007)
Vancouver/Memphis - Grizzlies (0 appearances)
Denver - Nuggets (0 appearances)
Orlando - Magic (2 appearances: 1995, 2009)
Phoenix - Suns (2 appearances: 1976, 1993)
San Diego/Los Angeles - Clippers (0 appearances)

What I'm getting at is...a LOT of players have never won it as the man. A lot of great players, hall of famers, never won it even when paired with other hall of famers (like Stockton and Malone). A lot of things can happen and winning it all isn't easy no matter if your best player is Lebron James or OJ Mayo.

But honestly, as I said, this is a pointless argument (for me) since it's just all speculation and really, neither side can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that one side or the other is the correct choice. Do I expect Mayo to ever win a championship as the man? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes.

[ThuglifeJ]

What I'm getting at is...a LOT of players have never won it as the man. A lot of great players, hall of famers, never won it

.........

Do I expect Mayo to ever win a championship as the man? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes.

EXACTLY. That's why I dont get how you can throw out MAYO being able to do it if so many couldn't who were a ton better.
It never happens unless you have a top notch dominant player (excluding Pistons).
Lakers? Shaq or Kobe>>> Mayo's ceiling.
Spurs? Duncan>>> Mayo's ceiling.
Celtics? KG or Pierce > Mayo.
Heat? Lebron or Wade or Shaq >>> Mayo's.
Mavs? Dirk >> Mayo's ceiling

the only case you have there is maybe the Celtics, where Mayo could maybe maybe reach a semi-older KG or Paul Pierce level of dominance but that's even unlikely imo. Iverson, Tmac, Vince, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, and many more were better then Mayo is or even has potential to be and maybe if Mayo reached a level like then THEN you can make claims like him being good enough to win it all as man.

so do I think Mayo will ever win a championship as the man? no. Do I think it's possible? only with a miracle shooting performance and 1-8 players arguably as good as Mayo.

[Skizzik]

EXACTLY. That's why I dont get how you can throw out MAYO being able to do it if so many couldn't who were a ton better.
It never happens unless you have a top notch dominant player (excluding Pistons).
Lakers? Shaq or Kobe>>> Mayo's ceiling.
Spurs? Duncan>>> Mayo's ceiling.
Celtics? KG or Pierce > Mayo.
Heat? Lebron or Wade or Shaq >>> Mayo's.
Mavs? Dirk >> Mayo's ceiling

the only case you have there is maybe the Celtics, where Mayo could maybe maybe reach a semi-older KG or Paul Pierce level of dominance but that's even unlikely imo. Iverson, Tmac, Vince, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, and many more were better then Mayo is or even has potential to be and maybe if Mayo reached a level like then THEN you can make claims like him being good enough to win it all as man.

so do I think Mayo will ever win a championship as the man? no. Do I think it's possible? only with a miracle shooting performance and 1-8 players arguably as good as Mayo.

I think Pierce is vastly overrated. He's not a very good shooter and a decent, but not elite defender. And the numbers back me up on those facts. Mayo is certainly capable (note the word capable, kind of like the word potential, it doesn't mean he will) of reaching a level where he is better than any player on that Celtics roster.

Regardless, I think three teams were setup where a guy like Mayo could win as the man in the last decade. The Pistons, Celtics and Mavs. You're more than welcome to disagree with me, but I personally think Mayo could have won in all three situations. (Once again, note that I say could have). It mostly just depends on who would have filled in when Mayo replaced certain players.

My point in the previous post was mostly, that it's hard to judge what it takes to win as the man since it's such a small sample size and, honestly, it's always evolving. Not many people thought a player like Dirk could win as the man. I even had my doubts. Cuban considered trading Dirk for Garnett in the mid 2000s. I thought it was a great deal at the time. Who wants a jump shooting PF? We need a defensive beast down low.

I just stand by my way of thinking that you never know what the future will bring. And trying to judge a player who clearly has played like an all-star to this point in the season in a system that allows him to play freely and someone who had always shown great potential in high school and when he was selected in the top 3. I simply think it's impossible for me to say...no way that guy ever wins a championship as the best player on his team. You're more than welcome to disagree, but I still stand by my opinion.

[ThuglifeJ]

Okay we'll leave the argument at that. I'll give you the Celtics if Mayo improved, but please don't ever say Pierce isn't a good shooter. That is literally the reason why he's good and still good.
But Pierce, Mayo, Allen all could not match the impact Kevin Garnett brought so it's still up in the air for being the best player in that situation.

Pistons I'd say no, all those players were defensive monsters. All 5 starters that's a big reason why they were so good.

and the Mavs you already know my stance on size/dominance.


good discussion tho. If you think Mayo could win as the best player in the right situation would you say the same about players like Iverson, Carter, McGrady in their prime? No doubt I believe if you switched Kobe with one of those 3 on the Lakers and they'd be far from the word "dissapointing"

[Skizzik]

Okay we'll leave the argument at that. I'll give you the Celtics if Mayo improved, but please don't ever say Pierce isn't a good shooter. That is literally the reason why he's good and still good.
But Pierce, Mayo, Allen all could not match the impact Kevin Garnett brought so it's still up in the air for being the best player in that situation.

Pistons I'd say no, all those players were defensive monsters. All 5 starters that's a big reason why they were so good.

and the Mavs you already know my stance on size/dominance.


good discussion tho. If you think Mayo could win as the best player in the right situation would you say the same about players like Iverson, Carter, McGrady in their prime? No doubt I believe if you switched Kobe with one of those 3 on the Lakers and they'd be far from the word "dissapointing"

On Pierce, no, he's really not that great of a shooter, he's average. 49% eFG%. Good shooters include Lebron, Allen, Dirk, all over 51%. Once again, vastly overrated player and stats back me up on that.

As for the other interesting question. T-Mac in his prime? Definitely. That guy had a real knack for making players and I think you could have put him on the Lakers in place of Kobe, as it wasn't the starring role with Shaq there. Him and Yao could never stay healthy when teamed up and their role players rarely gave them enough support.

I'm not sure I could see any of the three winning it all as the best player on their team though. Not due to talent, but because of their own mental quirks or styles. In my opinion, T-Mac was the most likely to win as the man and Iverson the least. Yet Iverson led his team to the Finals and T-Mac never left the first round. Then again, T-Mac's best years were in the west and Iverson's in the east. So there's something to be said about level of competition.

[ThuglifeJ]

Yeah I agree with that statement. Older you get the more you realize how imporant 'mental quirks' and styles really are. You cant really blame those 3 though the hype the media all got them going all the time to do flashy ****. I loved it but sometimes itd cost them. They still remained dominant offensive players in their prime tho so they shouldn't get hate like they do.

Basically the biggest reason in my eyes why Kobe can be said a better player overall is honestly this (In terms of winning style):

One of them gets super hot, sinks 5-6 shots in a row. On the 7th shot Tmac, Iverson, Carter all try something that's never been seen before. Kobe instead would try to do the same thing he did on the first 5-6 shots, like an easy lay up.

It always happened when they were all younger. Of course those 3 would get away with it and always do something unreal, but those habits carry over into winning time and when there older.

Yes Kobe has plenty of bad shots, but he knows when to cool it and mature.

Timing is important

[Skizzik]

Yeah I agree with that statement. Older you get the more you realize how imporant 'mental quirks' and styles really are. You cant really blame those 3 though the hype the media all got them going all the time to do flashy ****. I loved it but sometimes itd cost them. They still remained dominant offensive players in their prime tho so they shouldn't get hate like they do.

Basically the biggest reason in my eyes why Kobe can be said a better player overall is honestly this (In terms of winning style):

One of them gets super hot, sinks 5-6 shots in a row. On the 7th shot Tmac, Iverson, Carter all try something that's never been seen before. Kobe instead would try to do the same thing he did on the first 5-6 shots, like an easy lay up.

It always happened when they were all younger. Of course those 3 would get away with it and always do something unreal, but those habits carry over into winning time and when there older.

Yes Kobe has plenty of bad shots, but he knows when to cool it and mature.

Timing is important

With all due respect to Kobe's talent, he's had a LOT of help. Shaq was just plain unstoppable. Kobe contributed, but Shaq was the man on those Lakers teams, no question. Then Kobe struggled to escape the first round without Shaq. He doesn't see another ring until he has Gasol, Odom and Bynum.