Jemile Weeks

[GasMan]

You crack me up...

If I seem confused in my arguments it's because I'm really only opposed to the point of view that he's a terrible fielding SS but I'm not opposed to the idea that he's an ok SS or a below average batter. I see these as important distinctions.

[T $$$]

Range Factor (commonly abbreviated RF) is a baseball statistic developed by Bill James. It is calculated by dividing putouts and assists by the number of innings or games played at a given defense position. The statistic is premised on the notion that the total number of outs in which a player participates is more relevant in evaluating that player's defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances as calculated by the conventional statistic fielding percentage.

My concern with RF is that it divides the number of games into the putouts + assists which would assume that all shortstops see the same amount of opportunities per game. It also gives credit for putouts which don't really evaluate range. Even using RF, JP is the middle of the pack which would support my claim that he has average range. The 15th ranked RF is Clint Barmes with a 4.24 who if I'm understanding this correctly had 1 more putout/assist per 10 games. I guess I disagree with their interpretation or am completely misunderstanding the stat.

It is using an average...yes. Further to the point that Peralta will see an even higher number of opportunities with Fister, Sanchez, and Porcello making up 60% of the starting rotation. Therefore making it more important that the Tigers have a DEFENSIVE heavy SS instead of an OFFENSIVE one. We don't need offense at SS or at the 7th slot in our lineup...especially when Avila is the 8th hitter in the lineup.

[T $$$]

If I seem confused in my arguments it's because I'm really only opposed to the point of view that he's a terrible fielding SS but I'm not opposed to the idea that he's an ok SS or a below average batter. I see these as important distinctions.

Well, it makes it difficult to discuss it with you as you yourself are on the fence with Peralta...you think he is okay defensively, you think that he is okay offensively, but you don't want anybody to critique the guy...and you would be okay with replacing him...but don't say anything bad about him...and by the way "Cabrera is deficient at 3B, so don't forget about that too!"

[GasMan]

I'll take over for T$$$ if he and you don't mind.

When Peralta first came up he was a SS. Since then, he's put on weight and aged, which I hurts a SS the most. His personal range has gone down a lot over the last 4 years, granted as far as making the plays, he has soft hands. He can still get to routine balls, but you need your SS to get to the balls that are going up the middle or in between him and 3B, Peralta can't do that now.

As for the argument about the 3B effecting his range, no. The only thing a 3B with good range does it get to balls the SS can't reach. It has nothing to do with the SS individual range. Whether Peralta has Cabrera beside him or Lawrie, his range and abilities will not change. He would still get to the same amount of balls.

IMO, the way I look at D is this. Mainly, a 3B is usually power hitter(3-6 hitters) so most of the time has a little more size so isn't going to give you a lot of range side-to-side. The SS should be able to cover more ground than anybody and make up for the fact that 3B aren't as mobile. Peralta can NOT do that, so I see him as a 3B now in his career.

They all age and most put on a little extra weight (I tried finding his 2005 weight but was unsuccessful) but that doesn't really tell me anything about his range. You provided your opinion, which as someone who I'm guessing has watched a fair amount of JP, certainly has some validity but doesn't jive with the objective data.

My argument about 3B "effecting" range is my own speculation. I'm guessing Belliard is shifting JP a little to his right to cover for Cabby having the worst range for a 3B in the league. I could be wrong but I'm sure if Lawrie is at 3B, JP stands closer to 2B improving his ability to get to balls hit up the middle.

[GasMan]

Well, it makes it difficult to discuss it with you as you yourself are on the fence with Peralta...you think he is okay defensively, you think that he is okay offensively, but you don't want anybody to critique the guy...and you would be okay with replacing him...but don't say anything bad about him...and by the way "Cabrera is deficient at 3B, so don't forget about that too!"

Not at all, I think there is plenty to criticize about JP, especially offensively. Where I disagree with posters is when they say he isn't a SS or is clearly worse than S. Drew (that wasn't you but it was said). Statistically, he is an average SS. Would I prefer a top 5 SS? Of course, in fact I wish it was an organizational priority. I just don't understand the hate anymore than I would understand someone who thought he was great.

The Cabrera thing has become kind of funny to me because although I do believe it impacts JP's job as a SS, it is probably only a small factor. But it does seem to be heresy to speak ill of Miggy around here.

[GasMan]

It is using an average...yes. Further to the point that Peralta will see an even higher number of opportunities with Fister, Sanchez, and Porcello making up 60% of the starting rotation. Therefore making it more important that the Tigers have a DEFENSIVE heavy SS instead of an OFFENSIVE one. We don't need offense at SS or at the 7th slot in our lineup...especially when Avila is the 8th hitter in the lineup.

But that's why I think RZR is a better statistic. It actually looks at how many balls were hit into the SS's zone and how many times the SS turned it into an out. It also doesn't give them credit for stepping on the bag for a putout (not indicative of range).

[T $$$]

They all age and most put on a little extra weight (I tried finding his 2005 weight but was unsuccessful) but that doesn't really tell me anything about his range. You provided your opinion, which as someone who I'm guessing has watched a fair amount of JP, certainly has some validity but doesn't jive with the objective data.

My argument about 3B "effecting" range is my own speculation. I'm guessing Belliard is shifting JP a little to his right to cover for Cabby having the worst range for a 3B in the league. I could be wrong but I'm sure if Lawrie is at 3B, JP stands closer to 2B improving his ability to get to balls hit up the middle.

Lets wrap up this Cabrera portion of the equation once and for all...2012 defensive top 10 stats for 3B according to baseball-reference.com: Cabrera was third behind Headley and Wright for defensive games played at 3B at 154; Cabrera was tied for 1st with Moustakas in putouts at 127 ahead of #3 Wright with 107 (almost 20% margin); Cabrera was 8th in assists with 243; and Cabrera was tied for 8th place in errors committed by 3B with 13 on the season (Sandoval, Hannahan, Seager, and Betemit also had 13 each). Even without the offense which goes without saying given the AL MVP and Triple Crown, Cabrera is not an issue at 3B.

[T $$$]

Not at all, I think there is plenty to criticize about JP, especially offensively. Where I disagree with posters is when they say he isn't a SS or is clearly worse than S. Drew (that wasn't you but it was said). Statistically, he is an average SS. Would I prefer a top 5 SS? Of course, in fact I wish it was an organizational priority. I just don't understand the hate anymore than I would understand someone who thought he was great.

The Cabrera thing has become kind of funny to me because although I do believe it impacts JP's job as a SS, it is probably only a small factor. But it does seem to be heresy to speak ill of Miggy around here.

We would both benefit from you picking a side...I have chosen that I don't want Peralta as Tiger. For a guy whose calling card is his offense, for his position, he sucks. He doesn't live up to his calling card. And furthermore, I feel that if he doesn't hold up the offensive end...I see a lot of glaring weaknesses in his defense too...therefore, GET RID OF PERALTA.

[T $$$]

Not at all, I think there is plenty to criticize about JP, especially offensively. Where I disagree with posters is when they say he isn't a SS or is clearly worse than S. Drew (that wasn't you but it was said). Statistically, he is an average SS. Would I prefer a top 5 SS? Of course, in fact I wish it was an organizational priority. I just don't understand the hate anymore than I would understand someone who thought he was great.

The Cabrera thing has become kind of funny to me because although I do believe it impacts JP's job as a SS, it is probably only a small factor. But it does seem to be heresy to speak ill of Miggy around here.

That is because it is.

[T $$$]

But that's why I think RZR is a better statistic. It actually looks at how many balls were hit into the SS's zone and how many times the SS turned it into an out. It also doesn't give them credit for stepping on the bag for a putout (not indicative of range).

RZR, UZR, OOZ, abc, xyz, blah, blah, blah....I have been an AL Central fan my entire life (39 years), a Detroit Tigers die-hard the entire time....I have seen Peralta at Cleveland and now at Detroit....a simple eye test is enough for anyone to see that he can only make the routine plays and he CANNOT range out to anything wide. I love his soft hands, in my opinion, his only redeeming quality (beyond that I won't have to watch him as a Tiger, Lord willing, beyond 2013). But we need an Escobar (KC), we need an Omar Vizquel (in his prime), heck, I would take Brandon Crawford...give me defense. That is what we need.

[GasMan]

Number of games played is only important in determining his durability which is important but not indicative of defensive ability.

Number of putouts is fairly useless in determining range since a putout is counted only when:
Tagging a runner with the ball when he is not touching a base (a tagout)
Catching a batted or thrown ball and tagging a base to put out a batter or runner (a Force out)
Catching a thrown ball and tagging a base to record an out on an appeal play
Catching a third strike (a strikeout)
Catching a batted ball on the fly (a flyout)
Being positioned closest to a runner called out for interference

None of those things is fielding a groundball and throwing someone out which is really what we're talking about with range and are completely dependent on number of opportunities.

Assists is an indication of fielding ground balls and throwing someone out but is dependent on how many balls are hit to the 3B area. Cabrera's RZR (# plays/# of balls hit to zone) was .682, good for 25th.

Errors are not very useful because they ignore the times he wasn't even close enough to making a play that might have been charged as an error to a better 3B. I do think it shows he has a decent glove and arm and doesn't force plays he knows he can't make.

Cabrera is not the joke some thought he'd be at third but he is a bad defensive 3B who should be at first.

[GasMan]

We would both benefit from you picking a side...I have chosen that I don't want Peralta as Tiger. For a guy whose calling card is his offense, for his position, he sucks. He doesn't live up to his calling card. And furthermore, I feel that if he doesn't hold up the offensive end...I see a lot of glaring weaknesses in his defense too...therefore, GET RID OF PERALTA.

Life is not that easy. I don't believe players can only be categorized as good or bad (much less awesome or garbage). Losing Peralta but gaining Andrus? Sign me up. Losing Peralta but gaining some other average SS? What's the point? For all the negatives that we can agree or disagree on, I think we can all at least agree that he is durable and sure handed and not a problem in the clubhouse. I guess I prefer the average SS we know over the average SS we don't.

[GasMan]

That is because it is.

I love Cabrera in the Old English D as much as the next guy but flawless he is not.

[GasMan]

RZR, UZR, OOZ, abc, xyz, blah, blah, blah....I have been an AL Central fan my entire life (39 years), a Detroit Tigers die-hard the entire time....I have seen Peralta at Cleveland and now at Detroit....a simple eye test is enough for anyone to see that he can only make the routine plays and he CANNOT range out to anything wide. I love his soft hands, in my opinion, his only redeeming quality (beyond that I won't have to watch him as a Tiger, Lord willing, beyond 2013). But we need an Escobar (KC), we need an Omar Vizquel (in his prime), heck, I would take Brandon Crawford...give me defense. That is what we need.

I won't take credit for being a Tiger fan my entire 37 year life although I'm sure I was in front of plenty of Tiger games on the TV as a baby and toddler. But I do remember 84' as an 8 yr old with Parrish as my favorite Tiger.

I think the value of the "eye test" is limited and certainly more likely to be influence by bias in a fan. The fact is that we only see a small percentage of all the plays made by all the SS's during the year makes it pretty hard to assess something like range. While stats aren't perfect either, they are certainly more comprehensive and objective.

Again, sign me up for a significant upgrade over JP. I'm 100% on board with that plan.

[kokes]

They all age and most put on a little extra weight (I tried finding his 2005 weight but was unsuccessful) but that doesn't really tell me anything about his range. You provided your opinion, which as someone who I'm guessing has watched a fair amount of JP, certainly has some validity but doesn't jive with the objective data.

My argument about 3B "effecting" range is my own speculation. I'm guessing Belliard is shifting JP a little to his right to cover for Cabby having the worst range for a 3B in the league. I could be wrong but I'm sure if Lawrie is at 3B, JP stands closer to 2B improving his ability to get to balls hit up the middle.

I get what you're saying and you're right. If Miggy had Lawrie type range Peralta would probably make more plays up the middle. That's not range though, that's positioning. Peraltas' range still doesn't change, he just has a little less ground to cover. Put Uribe at SS with Lawrie at 3B and even he would get to balls up the middle. Obviously that helps with making plays and getting to balls, but like you said, we were talking about his "range".