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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    I couldn't find current numbers so you can take it with a grain of salt, but Denver has still had to play Pittsburgh, New England, Atlanta, Houston, Tampa, New Orleans, Cincy and Baltimore (this week). I think their recent easy schedule has been overrated, they're just making it look easy by winning every week. I'd certainly take New England's schedule over that.

    The QB ratings are 104.2 (Brady) to 104 (Manning). They're virtually identical. Brady definitely does deserve credit for limiting turnovers and I'm not trying to deny him that, but it's one stat. Peyton also deserves credit for consistently moving the chains with a higher completion percentage and for throwing the ball down field more. Remember, he had the noodle arm early in the year, his Y/A would be even higher if he was at full strength in September. Brady may be first in INT% to Manning being 9th, but Manning is second in completion percentage (and he would be first if Alex Smith weren't benched) with Brady 8th. Both of those stats mean something, as does Y/A. I don't think there's necessarily a right answer as to who has been better this year because they've been so close in so many ways, but my MVP vote goes to Manning because of the schedule and supporting cast.
    An old injury should have absolutely nothing to do with the MVP and absolutely everything to do with the comeback player of the year award. Moving to a new city and "adjusting" should have nothing to do with the MVP either. Changing teams and adopting a new offense? What? Guy has been in the league since 1998, if he can't quickly adapt to a new offense at this stage of his career then he is not the QB we all thought he was. While he elevated the level of play at the QB position in Denver that hardly required a Herculean effort. Any number of QB could have done that considering the complete lack of Tebow's basic QB skills. Peyton Manning's "supporting cast" is a top 10 underrated defense with a DPOY candidate in Von Miller that CARRIED Tebow to the postseason last year! Oh boy, he's really putting everyone on that terrible team on his back and carrying them There is absolutely no way Brady could have done that!
    Where is the Bronco's signature win this season? It'd better be the struggling Ravens.
    The Broncos have 7 rushing TDs to the Patriots 20. Imagine if Brady decided to throw the ball a little more instead of handing it off. Brady only has 4 INT to Manning's 10 and has 0 lost fumbles to Manning's 2. Let's not forget Brady's 3 rushing TD.
    Brady has straight up beaten Manning's team and the team that beat the Broncos. Manning will have a chance to do the same when they face Baltimore. I don't put much weight into these "who beat who" points, but it should be worth noting.
    The Pats offense has been very impressive despite all the injuries and not having the full cast together for a single game. This offense is on pace to be #2 all time behind it's 2007 O in points. Monday night marked Tom's 5th game with over a 120 passer rating, most by any QB this season. He's also the only QB not to finish below 60 percent completions in a single game this season.
    The Pats are 4 points away from being undefeated. Three losses by a combined four points..

    Want to play the Cassel and Brady argument?
    Brady 16-0 (18-1)
    Cassel 11-5

    5 W differential

    Manning 10-3 on pace for 13-3 imo
    Tebow 8-8 (9-9) and that's after taking over a 1-4 team

    5 W differential
    And this is with an improved defense and tiers higher QB.
    Tom Brady is surely just a system QB, so overrated. Peyton is the lock for MVP, no question. What he's done for this team is nothing short of remarkable.

    Also, schedule strength rankings BEFORE the season is absolutely laughable. Before the season you may think your playing a 6-10 calibur team in the 49ers, and the next thing you know your getting your *** kicked by a 13-3 calibur team with a rookie HC in Harbough.
    Last edited by Austeezy; 12-12-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by RateSports View Post
    I know every Bronco/Colt fan will not pay any attention to what I am about to say, but thats fine.

    Why does Peyton Manning consistently receive more credit for doing exactly what other QBs do?

    I am speaking of :

    • Audibles at the line of scrimmage
    • Being a good student of the game


    and his on-field play :

    • Brady has done everything Peyton has… and more
    • His lack of postseason success
    • Rodgers, Brees have just as many rings


    I am NOT saying Peyton is overrated because he is one of the best QBs of all-time. I am just curious as to why the media (ESPN and so forth) continue to praise him for doing things that plenty of QBs do.

    Brady, Rodgers and Brees audible just as much as Manning does but no one seems to notice.

    Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ben, Eli, Ryan are all studying game film religiously and receive zero credit.

    I feel like if Manning has a good season (in today's case, great season) he will ALWAYS be the front-runner for MVP even if he is outperformed (look up his last MVP and tell me who really deserved it).

    The neck surgery recovery is incredible and it is an amazing story but it isn't the reason he is receiving as much praise as he is getting. He was praised and worshipped every single year before that.
    Because he's the very Best at doing that. #1 at doing that, not saying he's the best QB but he's the best at everything you listed.
    ____________

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddhulett View Post
    Because he's the very Best at doing that. #1 at doing that, not saying he's the best QB but he's the best at everything you listed.
    The amount of proof in your post is overwhelming!

    PSD's Aaron Dropson.
    Honorary packers fan

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by RateSports View Post
    I know every Bronco/Colt fan will not pay any attention to what I am about to say, but thats fine.

    Why does Peyton Manning consistently receive more credit for doing exactly what other QBs do?

    I am speaking of :

    • Audibles at the line of scrimmage
    • Being a good student of the game


    and his on-field play :

    • Brady has done everything Peyton has… and more
    • His lack of postseason success
    • Rodgers, Brees have just as many rings


    I am NOT saying Peyton is overrated because he is one of the best QBs of all-time. I am just curious as to why the media (ESPN and so forth) continue to praise him for doing things that plenty of QBs do.

    Brady, Rodgers and Brees audible just as much as Manning does but no one seems to notice.

    Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ben, Eli, Ryan are all studying game film religiously and receive zero credit.

    I feel like if Manning has a good season (in today's case, great season) he will ALWAYS be the front-runner for MVP even if he is outperformed (look up his last MVP and tell me who really deserved it).

    The neck surgery recovery is incredible and it is an amazing story but it isn't the reason he is receiving as much praise as he is getting. He was praised and worshipped every single year before that.
    Brady cheated...Peyton didn't. Argument over!

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninerhomer49 View Post
    brady cheated...peyton didn't. Argument over!
    lol ziiinnnnngggg!

  6. #216
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    Audibles at the line of scrimmage
    Being a good student of the game....

    No information in the post needed about Manning being the best in the game at these two things.....Everyone knows he is the best, you dont need stats to show these two subjects because through out his 14 year career he has shown he is the best at these two things. Ask anyone in the league (if you could)

    Q.1. Who is the best at calling audibles at the LOS?

    Q.2. Who is the best student of the game?

    An overwhelming amount of coaches and player have said PEYTON MANNING.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmacsc2 View Post
    Audibles at the line of scrimmage
    Being a good student of the game....

    No information in the post needed about Manning being the best in the game at these two things.....Everyone knows he is the best, you dont need stats to show these two subjects because through out his 14 year career he has shown he is the best at these two things. Ask anyone in the league (if you could)

    Q.1. Who is the best at calling audibles at the LOS?

    Q.2. Who is the best student of the game?

    An overwhelming amount of coaches and player have said PEYTON MANNING.
    Ask these two questions.

    Q1 Who is the only QB who will go in the HOF who only has one SB win and in the playoffs that year had 3 TDs and 7INTs and was carried by his defense?

    Q2 Why does his forehead get so red?

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by NinerHomer49 View Post
    Brady cheated...Peyton didn't. Argument over!
    He did? How so?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    Here's my thing with indoor/outdoor weather adjustments. Manning is playing in Denver now and he looks as good as ever.
    Ridiculously small sample size, and I do not believe he has had to play in any horrible conditions in Denver this year yet.

    He and Brady have virtually identical stats down to QB ratings (Brady is ahead 104.2 to 104, so essentially negligible). We'll have to see how Manning plays these next few weeks in colder weather, but so far playing outdoors hasn't deterred him.
    That's why in my argument I said "Dome/warm weather". A 72 degree day with little wind and no rain isn't that tough to play in.

    Brady also has certain advantages that can't be accounted for with stats. Brady has had one head coach throughout his entire career, and he's arguably the greatest head coach of all time. Manning has had four, only one of which has a shot at the hall of fame and that would only happen if he came out of retirement and won another ring or two.
    What's the count on Mannings long running OC and QB Coach in Indy?

    Brady also had the #6, #17, #1, #2 #17 and #2 defenses in terms of PPG for his first six years whereas Manning had famously bad defenses for most of his. You can't measure the effect that has on a QB, but I always get more than a little bit annoyed when people conveniently forget how good Brady's defenses were during his three title runs.
    And I get annoyed when Brady is dinged for lesser stats than Manning pre 2007 w/o noting that his offense was much cheaper budget wise then Mannings and had much less in the way of All Star players.

    but Brady didn't become truly elite until 2005
    Sorry, game 7 2003 onward is when Brady became elite - the rest of the year 17/5 TD/Int ratio, and 5 games over 100 QB Rating in 10 games (all wins). Funny that he was so far behind Manning even as late as 2009, but now has Manning smoked in Domes, and outdoors. Manning has been on a statistical downslide since the end of 2004, with only two seasons breaking the trend - that explains parts of it.

    The moment I really realized Peyton's greatness was when Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 against Indy on their own 30 late in the 4th quarter in 2009.
    Sorry, you are missing a big part of the logic in that situation. BB's defense was cooked, Chad Pennington would have marched up and down the field on them at that point.

    I don't think there's another quarterback in history who could have scared Bill Belichick enough to do that, including Brady. Again entirely anecdotal, but if you can put the fear of god in Bill Belichick you're probably pretty ****ing good.
    It was the right call. 4 of the 6 guys with me agreed at the time.

    You know when I knew Manning was deeply and fatally flawed? Watching in the games and on the sideline on 1/18/04 and 1/16/05. Gesticulating wildly when Ty Law picked him off again. The steam pouring off his gigantic head as he pleaded and yelled at his teammates. The disgraceful post game presser when instead of taking his beating like a man, he tossed his OL under the bus in very stark terms. Manning is a warm weather/dome sort of leader, but he's cracked up in the pressure in ways Brady never has - what was that last pass Manning threw in his last SB game - a ridiculous Int.

    The Giants figured out the OL line calls before the 2007 SB, they beat on Brady all day long, he didn't play well, but he did what he could, and blamed nobody. Brady is a leader, and 35 years after both are retired, Brady will be talked about like Montana is today, and Manning will be talked about like Marino. Some will always stick up for the statistical marvel that is Marino, but most will take the full package of leader with the lesser arm and the greater ring count.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 12-12-2012 at 06:13 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    And the Patriots aren't built entirely around Tom Brady? Look at what the Patriots have invested in over the years, strong defensive lines to rush the passer when you have the lead (Seymour, Warren, Wilfork, now Chandler Jones for the Patriots, Freeney and Mathis for the Colts), a diverse set of pass catchers to throw to (Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, Lloyd and more for the Pats, Harrison, Wayne, Stokley, Garcon, Clark for the Colts) and a strong offensive line which just fell apart over Peyton's last few years. The difference isn't how the teams were built, the difference is that the Patriots had a hall of fame coach in Bill Belichick who adjusted on the fly to a backup QB and the Colts having a horrible coach in Jim Caldwell who couldn't. All of the problems the Patriots have today and have had for a while are problems Indy had during the Manning era, particularly in the secondary and up until this year, running the ball (at least after Edgerrin James left).
    You've made some very good points. I don't necessarily disagree with your points but i feel that the decsions that were made to build the colts had a pretty big impact over that of the coach. Polian and the colts decided to not have a backup qb and by letting manning have all the reps in practice. no coach should do that and no front office should allow it. the colts could have kept edgerrin james. he had over a 1000 yards twice with arionza who has no line. the colts spent no first round picks on offensive lineman durin manning's time there. They chose to experiment with 2 starting defensive ends(freeney and mathis) know to be liabilities in run defense. And the biggest thing of all that has to be taken into account are the Peyton Manning Passing Rules (introduced in 2004) When these changes happened the decline of all defenses across the nfl and defensive quality of play started.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Ridiculously small sample size, and I do not believe he has had to play in any horrible conditions in Denver this year yet.
    Fair enough, we'll wait on the next few weeks before saying anything definitive here.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    That's why in my argument I said "Dome/warm weather". A 72 degree day with little wind and no rain isn't that tough to play in.
    Ditto above.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    What's the count on Mannings long running OC and QB Coach in Indy?
    Fairly long, but as we've seen in Denver this year Manning can win with anyone coaching him. What nobody seems to mention with Tom Moore is that he wasn't exactly a legendary assistant before getting to Indy. He had some success in Detroit, but nothing compared to what he did with Manning. How much of his success in Indy can simply be attributed to having Manning as his QB?

    I think we can say pretty definitively that Belichick is a legendary coach with or without Brady. He may not have had as much success, but this is one of the great defensive minds of all time and he was decent in Cleveland without a franchise quarterback. Belichick's presence makes everything easier for Brady, he never has to worry about communication with his coach because they're tied at the hip, and he never has to worry about his team not being well prepared because Belichick makes sure they will be. There's a massive difference between having a very good offensive coordinator for most of your career and having a legendary head coach for all of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    And I get annoyed when Brady is dinged for lesser stats than Manning pre 2007 w/o noting that his offense was much cheaper budget wise then Mannings and had much less in the way of All Star players.
    If you're going to get annoyed about Brady getting dinged for lesser stats pre-2007 because of lesser talent on his offense then why can't I get annoyed about Peyton getting dinged for having less rings when he had horrible defenses supporting him and Brady had great ones? Bit of a double standard eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Sorry, game 7 2003 onward is when Brady became elite - the rest of the year 17/5 TD/Int ratio, and 5 games over 100 QB Rating in 10 games (all wins). Funny that he was so far behind Manning even as late as 2009, but now has Manning smoked in Domes, and outdoors. Manning has been on a statistical downslide since the end of 2004, with only two seasons breaking the trend - that explains parts of it.
    Game 7 of 2003 is when Brady became elite? The stats tell a different tale. In 2004 he completed 60.8% of his passes, had a 2:1 interception ratio, had a 3% interception rate (highest of his career) and didn't top 3700 yards. Very good, but not elite. 2005 was when he became elite. You can argue that he had elite stretches in 2003, but he didn't become statistically elite consistently until 2005. Manning was elite from year 2 on, his only major downfall being the interceptions which he eventually learned to cut down on.

    As for Manning's downslide I guess you can say it happened, but he still topped 100 QB rating in three of those years and it would have been four if Marvin Harrison hadn't gotten injured in '07. He may have fallen off from legendary statistically to just hall of fame level.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Sorry, you are missing a big part of the logic in that situation. BB's defense was cooked, Chad Pennington would have marched up and down the field on them at that point.
    But if Chad Pennington were the quarterback would Belichick have gone for it? No, he would have been fine handing Pennington the ball at his own 20 after a punt.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    It was the right call. 4 of the 6 guys with me agreed at the time.
    That's not the issue at hand here, I agree it was the right call, the question is whether or not Belichick would have made it with another QB looming rather than Peyton. I say no.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    You know when I knew Manning was deeply and fatally flawed? Watching in the games and on the sideline on 1/18/04 and 1/16/05. Gesticulating wildly when Ty Law picked him off again. The steam pouring off his gigantic head as he pleaded and yelled at his teammates. The disgraceful post game presser when instead of taking his beating like a man, he tossed his OL under the bus in very stark terms. Manning is a warm weather/dome sort of leader, but he's cracked up in the pressure in ways Brady never has - what was that last pass Manning threw in his last SB game - a ridiculous Int.
    God forbid he has bad games against top ranked defenses on the road in the snow. As for the whole leadership argument my argument is two fold. One, we have no idea as fans what really goes on in locker rooms so we can stop pretending we know what kind of leaders these guys are? It's ridiculous. Second of all, let's say he was immature and wrong in some of the things he said and did. Are you saying athletes can't evolve? Is LeBron still the guy who cracked under pressure even after winning a championship in dominating fashion? Ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    The Giants figured out the OL line calls before the 2007 SB, they beat on Brady all day long, he didn't play well, but he did what he could, and blamed nobody. Brady is a leader, and 35 years after both are retired, Brady will be talked about like Montana is today, and Manning will be talked about like Marino. Some will always stick up for the statistical marvel that is Marino, but most will take the full package of leader with the lesser arm and the greater ring count.
    First of all, ridiculous leadership argument alert, but whatever, I'll ignore that. Are you seriously using rings as your argument? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? Rings are won by teams, not individual players, and to give singular credit to one player for a ring shows a complete lack of understanding of how football works. If Manning had Belichick and those defenses Brady had during his run he'd have at least three rings. You're also completely ignoring all of the auxiliary factors that go into winning a Super Bowl. For example, if the Tuck Rule game is called correctly Brady only has two rings. My point is using rings as an argument to measure quarterbacks is just ridiculous. Oh, and people will talk about Manning like Marino? I doubt it, considering Manning has a ring.
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  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    Fair enough, we'll wait on the next few weeks before saying anything definitive here.



    Ditto above.



    Fairly long, but as we've seen in Denver this year Manning can win with anyone coaching him. What nobody seems to mention with Tom Moore is that he wasn't exactly a legendary assistant before getting to Indy. He had some success in Detroit, but nothing compared to what he did with Manning. How much of his success in Indy can simply be attributed to having Manning as his QB?

    I think we can say pretty definitively that Belichick is a legendary coach with or without Brady. He may not have had as much success, but this is one of the great defensive minds of all time and he was decent in Cleveland without a franchise quarterback. Belichick's presence makes everything easier for Brady, he never has to worry about communication with his coach because they're tied at the hip, and he never has to worry about his team not being well prepared because Belichick makes sure they will be. There's a massive difference between having a very good offensive coordinator for most of your career and having a legendary head coach for all of it.



    If you're going to get annoyed about Brady getting dinged for lesser stats pre-2007 because of lesser talent on his offense then why can't I get annoyed about Peyton getting dinged for having less rings when he had horrible defenses supporting him and Brady had great ones? Bit of a double standard eh?



    Game 7 of 2003 is when Brady became elite? The stats tell a different tale. In 2004 he completed 60.8% of his passes, had a 2:1 interception ratio, had a 3% interception rate (highest of his career) and didn't top 3700 yards. Very good, but not elite. 2005 was when he became elite. You can argue that he had elite stretches in 2003, but he didn't become statistically elite consistently until 2005. Manning was elite from year 2 on, his only major downfall being the interceptions which he eventually learned to cut down on.

    As for Manning's downslide I guess you can say it happened, but he still topped 100 QB rating in three of those years and it would have been four if Marvin Harrison hadn't gotten injured in '07. He may have fallen off from legendary statistically to just hall of fame level.



    But if Chad Pennington were the quarterback would Belichick have gone for it? No, he would have been fine handing Pennington the ball at his own 20 after a punt.



    That's not the issue at hand here, I agree it was the right call, the question is whether or not Belichick would have made it with another QB looming rather than Peyton. I say no.



    God forbid he has bad games against top ranked defenses on the road in the snow. As for the whole leadership argument my argument is two fold. One, we have no idea as fans what really goes on in locker rooms so we can stop pretending we know what kind of leaders these guys are? It's ridiculous. Second of all, let's say he was immature and wrong in some of the things he said and did. Are you saying athletes can't evolve? Is LeBron still the guy who cracked under pressure even after winning a championship in dominating fashion? Ridiculous.



    First of all, ridiculous leadership argument alert, but whatever, I'll ignore that. Are you seriously using rings as your argument? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? Rings are won by teams, not individual players, and to give singular credit to one player for a ring shows a complete lack of understanding of how football works. If Manning had Belichick and those defenses Brady had during his run he'd have at least three rings. You're also completely ignoring all of the auxiliary factors that go into winning a Super Bowl. For example, if the Tuck Rule game is called correctly Brady only has two rings. My point is using rings as an argument to measure quarterbacks is just ridiculous. Oh, and people will talk about Manning like Marino? I doubt it, considering Manning has a ring.
    you are right about teams winning rings. the media gives manning all the credit(I'm not saying he does not deserve a lot be he had a lot of help). It can be argued that the colts would not have won a superbowl if the not for the advent of the Peyton Manning Passing Rules. the patriots had shown every one numerous times that physical play at the line of scrimmage helped render the colts offense ineffective. but now with the peyton manning passing rules anyone can throw for 400 against any defense...rookies, part time starters, every now and then starters anyone

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    First of all, let's use paragraphs when making arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    An old injury should have absolutely nothing to do with the MVP and absolutely everything to do with the comeback player of the year award. Moving to a new city and "adjusting" should have nothing to do with the MVP either.
    I've never said that's why Manning should win the MVP. I think Manning should win the MVP for doing the same thing as Brady but with worse teammates. I've used that as an argument for what makes this season even more impressive by Manning, but it's not why I think he's the MVP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Changing teams and adopting a new offense? What? Guy has been in the league since 1998, if he can't quickly adapt to a new offense at this stage of his career then he is not the QB we all thought he was.
    It's not exactly easy to play in one system for over a decade and then pick up a new one and play just as well. He should be commended for that, most guys would struggle under those circumstances. Look at Favre with the Jets. When he went back to his old system when he joined the Vikings he had a lot more success. Obviously there were other factors, but the system played a big part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    While he elevated the level of play at the QB position in Denver that hardly required a Herculean effort. Any number of QB could have done that considering the complete lack of Tebow's basic QB skills.
    Any number of QBs could have done it? Because Kyle Orton didn't. They went 1-4 with him. But just for fun, let's do some math here. The Broncos went 8-8 last year but we all know that number is inflated by Tebow magic. Statistically, using the pythagorean wins formula, they were a .385 winning percentage team, or basically a 6-10 team. Using the pythagorean wins formula on this year's team they are a .680 winning percentage team, or an 11-5 team. That means Manning was worth five pythagorean wins to this Denver team that is on paper largely the same as last year's. Pythagorean expectations are meant to stay close to the team, so the fact that one player is worth five pythagorean wins is pretty remarkable. If you need proof that he's actually worth that much, we'll get to it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Peyton Manning's "supporting cast" is a top 10 underrated defense with a DPOY candidate in Von Miller that CARRIED Tebow to the postseason last year! Oh boy, he's really putting everyone on that terrible team on his back and carrying them There is absolutely no way Brady could have done that!
    I've never disparaged Denver's defense. His weak supporting cast is his offense. His best running back is both mediocre and declining (Willis McGahee), he has one really good receiver (Thomas) and four mediocre targets (Decker, Stokley, Dreesen, Tamme). Brady has two of the three best tight ends in football, an elite wide receiver, another very good receiver, a third receiver pretty similar to Decker (Edelman), and a very solid running game with a potential star in Ridley. He also has another decent back in Bolden and a great receiving back in Woodhead. Brady's offense is way better than Manning's in terms of receiving and running options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Where is the Bronco's signature win this season? It'd better be the struggling Ravens.
    You can't help your schedule. The Broncos played four contenders (Pittsburgh, New England, Atlanta, Houston) in their first five games. When Peyton wasn't healthy, the team was still figuring out their chemistry and the coaches were still feeling out how this was gonna work. If Denver played Atlanta, New England and Houston in November instead of September I'd imagine them winning at least one, potentially two of those games. This current Denver team is very different from the one we saw early in the season. If you can't see that then you clearly don't watch football.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    The Broncos have 7 rushing TDs to the Patriots 20. Imagine if Brady decided to throw the ball a little more instead of handing it off.
    Peyton Manning has attempted 483 passes this year. Brady has attempted 495 .

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Brady only has 4 INT to Manning's 10 and has 0 lost fumbles to Manning's 2. Let's not forget Brady's 3 rushing TD.
    The interceptions matter, but so does completion percentage (Peyton beats Brady by a full four points, 68 to 64) and Y/A (Peyton beats Brady by .2, 7.9 to 7.7). And you're seriously bringing up rushing TDs? Those are entirely circumstantial, it's not like Brady was breaking 30 yard runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Brady has straight up beaten Manning's team and the team that beat the Broncos. Manning will have a chance to do the same when they face Baltimore. I don't put much weight into these "who beat who" points, but it should be worth noting.
    Brady beat Manning's team at home, with Manning still recovering, and with Denver playing their first game with a new center (JD Walton got hurt the week before). Center injuries are vastly underrated, teams always suffer badly without them. I don't put much stock into that game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    The Pats offense has been very impressive despite all the injuries and not having the full cast together for a single game. This offense is on pace to be #2 all time behind it's 2007 O in points. Monday night marked Tom's 5th game with over a 120 passer rating, most by any QB this season. He's also the only QB not to finish below 60 percent completions in a single game this season.
    The Pats whole offense has been really impressive. Maybe that has something to do with their very impressive roster, not just the QB? They're deep enough to do really well no matter who's hurt (Brady obviously excluded). The Broncos don't have that luxury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    The Pats are 4 points away from being undefeated. Three losses by a combined four points..
    Right. They're also a Stephen Hill drop away from an extra loss, and if we're being absolutely technically they have three single digit wins (Jets, Bills, Dolphins). Statistically games that are decided by a touchdown or less are essentially random. Happy to provide data if you'd like it, but it's as close to statistical fact as there is in football. If Stephen Hill catches the ball the Jets win in Foxborough. The Bills and Dolphins could have pulled those games out as well. It goes both ways. The Patriots should be commended for their blow outs, but don't try to say they should be undefeated because they shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Want to play the Cassel and Brady argument?
    Brady 16-0 (18-1)
    Cassel 11-5

    5 W differential

    Manning 10-3 on pace for 13-3 imo
    Tebow 8-8 (9-9) and that's after taking over a 1-4 team

    5 W differential
    Want to play the Cassel and Brady argument? Ok, let's do it the smart way.

    Brady pythagorean winning % 2007: .822
    Cassel pythagorean winning % 2008: .637
    Difference in %: .185
    Difference in pythagorean wins: 3

    Peyton pythagorean winning % 2010: .557
    Painter/Orlovsky pythagorean winning % 2011: 242
    Difference in %: .315
    Difference in pythagorean wins: 5

    Peyton pythagorean winning % 2010: .557
    Luck pythagorean winning % 2012: .441
    Difference in %: .116
    Difference in pythagorean wins: 2

    Peyton pythagorean winning % 2012: .680
    Tebow/Orton pythagorean winning % 2011: .385
    Difference in %: .295
    Difference in pythagorean wins: 5

    Hmm...


    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    And this is with an improved defense and tiers higher QB.
    Tom Brady is surely just a system QB, so overrated. Peyton is the lock for MVP, no question. What he's done for this team is nothing short of remarkable.
    Show me where I've ever said anything negative about Brady. He's a hall of famer and one of the greatest QBs of all time. I just think Peyton is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austeezy View Post
    Also, schedule strength rankings BEFORE the season is absolutely laughable. Before the season you may think your playing a 6-10 calibur team in the 49ers, and the next thing you know your getting your *** kicked by a 13-3 calibur team with a rookie HC in Harbough.
    I only had the official numbers for before the season. Still, Denver has played a much harder schedule. They played four of their six hardest games (Denver, Indianapolis, Houston, San Francisco) at home and only had to play two other decent teams (Baltimore and Seattle). The other 10 games were against pieces of ****. Denver's only easy games were their divisional games and Carolina. They had to travel to Atlanta, to Baltimore, to Cincinnati and to New England and play Pittsburgh, Houston, Tampa, New Orleans and Cleveland (suddenly looking really good, have won 4 in a row) at home. That's a much tougher schedule. To come out of that schedule 13-3 is a very solid feat. Oh, and it's spelled Harbaugh.
    We're better than you
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormSizedMidget View Post
    I'm ******** sorry
    That explains it. Let me help you be less ********. The gentleman said their stats are almost identical and he even posted the stats! They were damn near the same besides ONE stat, which is what I was pointing out you douche.
    @paulpierce34 I told Wade I will **** his mom like how my man D. West did his mans. Thats why I got ejected
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    If you're going to get annoyed about Brady getting dinged for lesser stats pre-2007 because of lesser talent on his offense then why can't I get annoyed about Peyton getting dinged for having less rings when he had horrible defenses supporting him and Brady had great ones? Bit of a double standard eh?
    Are you vexed by Manning winning two MVP's he didn't deserve?

    Are you vexed by Manning being paid much more than Brady, not to mention costing the #1 pick when Brady cost #199 - meaning the Colts couldn't all things being equal be as good as the Pats - and all because of Manning's price tag?

    Vexed that Manning was expected to be a great QB, but has faltered in big games, while Brady entered the league with no fanfare and has "stolen" much of what Manning was supposed to win and earn?

    Game 7 of 2003 is when Brady became elite? The stats tell a different tale. In 2004 he completed 60.8% of his passes, had a 2:1 interception ratio, had a 3% interception rate (highest of his career) and didn't top 3700 yards. Very good, but not elite.
    Manning had two seasons in a row - 2009 and 2010 when he amassed 66 TD's and 33 Int's that's not elite, and that's a 2/1 ratio. Can we say that Manning ceased being an elite QB during those 2 years?

    In '98, '01, '02 Manning had Int% of 4.9%, 4.2%, 3.2%. So Manning was elite from '03 to '08 it seems, but not before and only after in one year - so far in 2012.

    Manning was elite from year 2 on, his only major downfall being the interceptions which he eventually learned to cut down on.
    Until of course 2009-2010 after 2002 - like I said above.

    But if Chad Pennington were the quarterback would Belichick have gone for it? No, he would have been fine handing Pennington the ball at his own 20 after a punt.
    Can't say for sure.

    God forbid he has bad games against top ranked defenses on the road in the snow. As for the whole leadership argument my argument is two fold. One, we have no idea as fans what really goes on in locker rooms
    He did it in front if microphones, so we damn well do know. I used to have the transcript somewhere. Some fine reading....

    so we can stop pretending we know what kind of leaders these guys are? It's ridiculous.
    We do in that case. Manning failed to lead, and acted childishly.

    Second of all, let's say he was immature and wrong in some of the things he said and did. Are you saying athletes can't evolve? Is LeBron still the guy who cracked under pressure even after winning a championship in dominating fashion?
    The fact that they can doesn't mean he did or will. I believe he's gotten better at it - in an incremental fashion.

    First of all, ridiculous leadership argument alert, but whatever, I'll ignore that. Are you seriously using rings as your argument? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? Rings are won by teams, not individual players, and to give singular credit to one player for a ring shows a complete lack of understanding of how football works. If Manning had Belichick and those defenses Brady had during his run he'd have at least three rings. You're also completely ignoring all of the auxiliary factors that go into winning a Super Bowl. For example, if the Tuck Rule game is called correctly Brady only has two rings. My point is using rings as an argument to measure quarterbacks is just ridiculous. Oh, and people will talk about Manning like Marino? I doubt it, considering Manning has a ring.
    In football with so few regular season games and playoff games, there are not many opportunities to show what you can do. You yourself say that the ability to gather and interpret statistics is limited in football. So what have we but things like rings, Championship performances (SB + Conference Championships).

    Manning 3-2 TD: 7 Int: 7

    Brady 8-3 TD: 15 Int: 9

    Brady did well with his opportunities in the 11 most important games of his career. Manning based on his numbers did less well in his biggest games.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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