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  1. #16
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    I actually think a better question would be how would Hakeem be viewed had the Bulls won 8 in a row. Because realistically speaking Hakeem is in the top 10 all time because of 1994 and 1995. It he doesn't win those years would he even be considered ahead of Karl Malone alltime?
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    As long as he didnt lose with HCA it wouldn't matter much.
    Dude. What is your deal with HCA? That means absolutely nothing. There are dozens of examples of teams winning series without HCA. Hell, the last two champions didn't have HCA. The only way having HCA and losing hurts your legacy is if you're the alpha dog and it happens to you a lot in your career or if you lose to a team that was clearly inferior to yours (like an 8-1, 7-2 or 4-1 matchup). But losing one Finals without HCA means exactly jack ****.


  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    This is an interesting discussion, because I do think the 94 Bulls would have beaten the Rockets, but I don't think the 95 Bulls would have. Hakeem would have manhandled the Bulls' bigs, Drexler was still in his prime and that team had a magical postseason run that year and would have beaten anybody.

    But would it have damaged his legacy? I don't think so. People wouldn't be able to constantly tout "6 for 6", but one Finals loss doesn't damn a career as unbelievable as his. His numbers speak for themselves.
    First of all, the Bulls always played some of the best team defense ever. Pippen was the ultimate help defender, and Rodman and Jordan speak for themselves defensively. Ron Harper also played pretty good defense so as a team, I don't think one man would've beaten them and we all know Drexler, prime or not, was no match for Jordan. Jordan relishes those kinds of challenges. Don't u know that *****? What happened in game 1 of the '92 finals when it was Blazers vs Bulls wasn't just something that happen out the blue. No, Jordan went-the-******* off because of the fact that some people thought Drexler was in Jordan's league and Jordan was out to prove a point. Bulls all the way!!!!!! Maybe you're young, but Jordan is a different breed of superstar. When he faces other superstars, his game goes up another level. Jordan embraces it and IMO, Drexler has no shot.
    Last edited by TheLegend; 12-06-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    I actually think a better question would be how would Hakeem be viewed had the Bulls won 8 in a row. Because realistically speaking Hakeem is in the top 10 all time because of 1994 and 1995. It he doesn't win those years would he even be considered ahead of Karl Malone alltime?
    Like I said, I firmly believe the 95 Rockets would have beaten any team in the league in a seven-game playoff series. They were that strong and they were playing that well at the time.

    However, if he hadn't brought a title to Houston, I think he's probably spoken in the same realm as a guy like Moses, who also won MVPs and played in NBA Championships like Hakeem did, but never won a ring in Houston.


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Dude. What is your deal with HCA? That means absolutely nothing. There are dozens of examples of teams winning series without HCA. Hell, the last two champions didn't have HCA. The only way having HCA and losing hurts your legacy is if you're the alpha dog and it happens to you a lot in your career or if you lose to a team that was clearly inferior to yours (like an 8-1, 7-2 or 4-1 matchup). But losing one Finals without HCA means exactly jack ****.
    No it shows what type of teams you beat and it shows that you never got upset in a series.

    Code:
     
                  HCA(50+)/non-50     
    Jordan:       14-0 / 10-0         
    Russell:      10-0 / 12-1        
    Shaq:         11-2 / 12-2         
    Magic:        9-2 / 20-1          
    Duncan:       15-5 / 8-1          
    Jabbar:       11-3 / 23-2        
    Olajuwon:     4-0 / 5-2           
    Bird:         10-6 / 14-1         
    Wilt:         4-3 / 9-2          
    Tmac:         0-2 / 0-0           
    Kobe:         18-2 / 7-0          
    Lebron:       2-3/ 10-0          
    Wade:         2-2/ 8-0            
    Durant:       2-1/ 2-0
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
    First of all, the Bulls always played some of the best team defense ever. Pippen was the ultimate help defender, and Rodman and Jordan speak for themselves defensively. Ron Harper also played pretty good defense so as a team, I don't think one man would've beaten them and we all know Drexler, prime or not, was no match for Jordan. Jordan relishes those kinds of challenges. Don't u know that *****? What happened in game 1 of the '92 finals when it was Blazers vs Bulls wasn't just something that happen out the blue. No, Jordan went-the-******* off because of the fact that some people thought Drexler was in Jordan's league and Jordan was out to prove a point. Bulls all the way!!!!!!
    First off, calling someone names as a response doesn't exactly earn you brownie points on PSD or make your argument stronger. Secondly, it's a known fact that the Rockets were one of the few teams that regularly beat the Bulls in the 90s. And if you don't believe me, here's some evidence:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01

    And you're citing a series with Drexler and Jordan where Clyde was the alpha dog. Clearly in 95, Hakeem was the alpha dog and Drexler was the No. 2.

    There's no telling what would have happened had the two teams met in 95 without Jordan retiring. But people too often fail to recognize that Jordan DID come back in 95 and played 17 regular season games before the playoffs started and they got beat down by the Shaq/Penny Magic. Is 17 games enough to get back to NBA speed? Maybe not, but he certainly didn't just come back off the street to play against the Magic.


  7. #22
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    What ifs...What if the world wasn't flat? We could go on and on.

  8. #23
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    It's not like the Lakers and Celtics won every year in the 80's. If somebody was good enough to beat Jordan, and Hakeem may very well have been, nobody would hold that against a guy. If a guy wins 6 out of 8 years, nobody is going to see him as a failure in any light. Nobody would say: Well, though he did win 6, he dropped the ball twice. I mean, Detroit beat Jordan 3 years in a row and people don't hold that against him. If the Knicks or Magic or Rockets had beat Jordan and the Bulls in 94/95 with Jordan, nobody would have held it against Jordan. He would still be seen as he is today.

    That said, the Bulls may not have been able to do what they did had Jordan stayed. would Harper have been willing to sign with the Bulls if Jordan was still there? Would Horace Grant have left? If Grant was still there, would they have made the trade for Rodman? And if they stuck with Grant would that have been enough to win 6-8 titles?

    A lot of questions would come up. But yeah... if Jordan had won 6-8 while playing full seasons, nobody would consider him any less of a player. Bird and Magic and Shaq have all been losers in seasons where they could have won, and nobody sees that as tarnishing their legacies.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    No it shows what type of teams you beat and it shows that you never got upset in a series.

    Code:
     
                  HCA(50+)/non-50     
    Jordan:       14-0 / 10-0         
    Russell:      10-0 / 12-1        
    Shaq:         11-2 / 12-2         
    Magic:        9-2 / 20-1          
    Duncan:       15-5 / 8-1          
    Jabbar:       11-3 / 23-2        
    Olajuwon:     4-0 / 5-2           
    Bird:         10-6 / 14-1         
    Wilt:         4-3 / 9-2          
    Tmac:         0-2 / 0-0           
    Kobe:         18-2 / 7-0          
    Lebron:       2-3/ 10-0          
    Wade:         2-2/ 8-0            
    Durant:       2-1/ 2-0
    But you're making it sound as if a team with HCA should ALWAYS win a playoff series. That isn't the case at all. So often, a team without HCA is the better basketball team. Teams deal with injuries and various other problems throughout the course of a regular season that affect their regular season record. And some teams are just better suited for the regular season than the playoffs because of depth and youth.

    The playoffs are a completely different ball game than the regular season, so I usually don't care that much about seeds. Should a 1 beat an 8? Of course. But how often do 2s and 3s beat 1s? And how often to we see 5s and 6s beat 4s and 3s?

    HCA is a nice advantage to have, but it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion that means you ought to win a series. Because all it takes is one loss at home to all of a sudden turn that advantage into a disadvantage. If HCA meant you played five games out of seven at home, that'd be a different story.


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    I actually think a better question would be how would Hakeem be viewed had the Bulls won 8 in a row. Because realistically speaking Hakeem is in the top 10 all time because of 1994 and 1995. It he doesn't win those years would he even be considered ahead of Karl Malone alltime?
    Thats a good point. Who would you bump into your top 10 than?
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Would that really be held against him? He is still only human and the game isnt 100% about talent or should a team with that much of an advantage over the competition win every time?
    I don't think it would've been held against him at all. It would've only added to his accolades. Where now we have a "what if" in terms of how they would've done those 2 year we would've known.

    Also, it wouldn't be a detriment to lose either of those years because there were just a ton of good teams battling to win it all.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    First off, calling someone names as a response doesn't exactly earn you brownie points on PSD or make your argument stronger. Secondly, it's a known fact that the Rockets were one of the few teams that regularly beat the Bulls in the 90s. And if you don't believe me, here's some evidence:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=jordami01

    And you're citing a series with Drexler and Jordan where Clyde was the alpha dog. Clearly in 95, Hakeem was the alpha dog and Drexler was the No. 2.

    There's no telling what would have happened had the two teams met in 95 without Jordan retiring. But people too often fail to recognize that Jordan DID come back in 95 and played 17 regular season games before the playoffs started and they got beat down by the Shaq/Penny Magic. Is 17 games enough to get back to NBA speed? Maybe not, but he certainly didn't just come back off the street to play against the Magic.
    What does being a alpha dog has to do with anything? Does it matter? He was a top SG in the league regardless!!! Jordan would've viewed him as a challenge and ate him up. Hakeem would've gotten his, but not enough to have beating Jordan in a series. No offense, but it's always the kids that doubt Jordan. U simply don't have enough experience to know. But as someone who watched Jordan and the Bulls from the start, I know better and the Rockets would've been hard pressed to beat the Bulls. Jordan was 6-0 in the finals for a reason dude. If the Rockets beat the Bulls in the regular season, didn't matter. Finals is a different world and obviously you don't know that.

    Also, I didn't call u a name dude. The word that was blocked out was "S" "H" "I" "T".
    Last edited by TheLegend; 12-06-2012 at 01:44 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by _KB24_ View Post
    Thats a good point. Who would you bump into your top 10 than?
    I think Jerry West or the Big O.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    But you're making it sound as if a team with HCA should ALWAYS win a playoff series. That isn't the case at all. So often, a team without HCA is the better basketball team. Teams deal with injuries and various other problems throughout the course of a regular season that affect their regular season record. And some teams are just better suited for the regular season than the playoffs because of depth and youth.

    The playoffs are a completely different ball game than the regular season, so I usually don't care that much about seeds. Should a 1 beat an 8? Of course. But how often do 2s and 3s beat 1s? And how often to we see 5s and 6s beat 4s and 3s?

    HCA is a nice advantage to have, but it certainly isn't a foregone conclusion that means you ought to win a series. Because all it takes is one loss at home to all of a sudden turn that advantage into a disadvantage. If HCA meant you played five games out of seven at home, that'd be a different story.
    Well I am saying if you have HCA in a series that you would expect to win that series as the favorite especially if when having HCA you have the better star player as well. Not saying no team gets upset but let's say you play 15 playoff series with HCA you will probably win 12-13 of those series. So say you are 13-2 in series with HCA that is a 87% rate. Let's say you played 10 series without HCA you will probably win 3-4 of those. So let's say 3-7 or 30%.

    So 13-2 with HCA (87%) and 3-7 w/o HCA (30%)

    Now when you combine then you get 16-9 in series overall or 64%
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellcrooner View Post
    Magic Lakers . it went 5 in 9
    But how can either one of them have a great talent disparity if they were both in the league at the same time?

    A talent disparity is when you are CLEARLY more talented than the rest of the league.

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