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  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by b@llhog24 View Post
    What does FMVP have to do with the reg MVP?
    I said the clear cut best player on the best team. KG may have been the best player, but he wasn't overwhelmingly the best player on the best team. He had too great of wing men in Pierce and Allen. Thats also why they didn't give MVP to Shaq in 2001,2002...he had Kobe. lol yet they give it to Lebron 2012 even though he had Wade and Bosh. Makes no sense.

    2008 Garnett: 18.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg .588 TS%

    2008 Pierce: 19.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, .599 TS%

    2008 Allen: 17.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, .584 TS%

    Honestly, it's debatable if KG was the best player on the Celtics in 2008. He was clearly not the clear cut dominant leader of the team. Pierce scored more per game and was more efficient as well as the better playmaker. KG had him in rebounds and defense. If you want to say that KG was the number one option...which he clearly wasn't nor was he in crunch time...than you would have to give Pierce a 1b option. A true MVP does not have a wing man who is just as much the alpha male as he is. In addition, KG had the best 3rd option in the NBA that year in Allen. A true MVP cannot have that much help..and if he does, he better win at least 70 games considering how weak the east was that year.

    For Lebron to have as much help as he did in 2012 and not even have the best record in the league considering he was in the weak east just shows how much clearly did not deserve the MVP that year. If you hold Shaq and KG to a certain standard, you must hold Lebron to the same. Hypocrisy at it's finest. The 2012 MVP should have been Kevin Durant.
    Last edited by amos1er; 12-30-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Durant 2012: 28.0 ppg 8rpg 3.5 apg with TS% .61 PER 26.2 and WS/48 .230
    Lebron 2012: 27.1 ppg 7.9 rbp 6.2 apg with TS% .605 30.7 PER and WS/48 .298

    I think the stats are definitely on Lebron's side, especially when you then consider his superior defense (there was a bigger gap last year than this year).

    That said so far this year I see 4 people to consider: Durant, Paul, Lebron, Melo. At this moment I'd have melo at the bottom and the others as the top 3. Any order works for now because they all have arguments (cp3 currently best team but but his teammates are playing amazing and he doesn't have to do as much as the other two, Durant great stats great team, Lebron great stats great team). Until we know the final records and stats these three may move around a bit and Melo may come back into play. At this moment I would say Durant, Paul, then Lebron but its very close.
    So the main criteria for the MVP award is who has the best overall stats? 2011 Derrick Rose would disagree wholeheartedly.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    I said the clear cut best player on the best team. KG may have been the best player, but he wasn't overwhelmingly the best player on the best team. He had too great of wing men in Pierce and Allen. Thats also why they didn't give MVP to Shaq in 2001,2002...he had Kobe. lol yet they give it to Lebron 2012 even though he had Wade and Bosh. Makes no sense.

    2008 Garnett: 18.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg .588 TS%

    2008 Pierce: 19.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, .599 TS%

    2008 Allen: 17.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, .584 TS%

    Honestly, it's debatable if KG was the best player on the Celtics in 2008. He was clearly not the clear cut dominant leader of the team. Pierce scored more per game and was more efficient as well as the better playmaker. KG had him in rebounds and defense. If you want to say that KG was the number one option...which he clearly wasn't nor was he in crunch time...than you would have to give Pierce a 1b option. A true MVP does not have a wing man who is just as much the alpha male as he is. In addition, KG had the best 3rd option in the NBA that year in Allen. A true MVP cannot have that much help..and if he does, he better win at least 70 games considering how weak the east was that year.

    For Lebron to have as much help as he did in 2012 and not even have the best record in the league considering he was in the weak east just shows how much clearly did not deserve the MVP that year. If you hold Shaq and KG to a certain standard, you must hold Lebron to the same. Hypocrisy at it's finest. The 2012 MVP should have been Kevin Durant.
    You're missing the point. KG may not have statistically been the best player in the league or even on the Celtics, but he had arguably the biggest defensive impact on a team any single player has ever had. He changed the entire culture of the organization. That's why he was the MVP that year, at least in my eyes. You could argue for any of the four guys who were in the race that year (CP3, Kobe, LeBron), but I'd give it to KG. Only KG leads that team to a title. Replace him with any other big man and they lose to the Lakers. Dwight Howard doesn't have the force of personality to do what KG did. No other big man could have come close.
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  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    You're missing the point. KG may not have statistically been the best player in the league or even on the Celtics, but he had arguably the biggest defensive impact on a team any single player has ever had. He changed the entire culture of the organization. That's why he was the MVP that year, at least in my eyes. You could argue for any of the four guys who were in the race that year (CP3, Kobe, LeBron), but I'd give it to KG. Only KG leads that team to a title. Replace him with any other big man and they lose to the Lakers. Dwight Howard doesn't have the force of personality to do what KG did. No other big man could have come close.
    Ugh...Tom Thibodeau???

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er:24900397
    I said the clear cut best player on the best team.
    So you've dropped your ridiculous FMVP argument? Well now we can talk.

    KG may have been the best player, but he wasn't overwhelmingly the best player on the best team.
    Lmao. Except he was.

    He had too great of wing men in Pierce and Allen. Thats also why they didn't give MVP to Shaq in 2001,2002...he had Kobe. lol yet they give it to Lebron 2012 even though he had Wade and Bosh. Makes no sense.
    Our maybe just, just maybe they had a better better storyline? But why would you signal out 2012? Wade missed a ton of games (Like the Rose story) and Bosh still was lost in the offense. Also last year Durant had "more valuable" teammates anyways.

    2008 Garnett: 18.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg .588 TS%

    2008 Pierce: 19.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, .599 TS%

    2008 Allen: 17.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, .584 TS%
    I constantly see you attack/question advanced stats. Why wouldn't you just post their full statlines if you're gonna use TS%? (You're obviously on the page) It's not like you just know this out of your head so it's really not that hard. Unless TS% is the only thing you understand, then I guess it's acceptable.

    Honestly, it's debatable if KG was the best player on the Celtics in 2008. He was clearly not the clear cut dominant leader of the team.
    This statement makes me question your knowledge of the game.

    Pierce scored more per game and was more efficient as well as the better playmaker. KG had him in rebounds and defense
    Which is a nice thing to have over Pierce since the Celtics won on the strength of their defense.

    If you want to say that KG was the number one option...which he clearly wasn't nor was he in crunch time...than you would have to give Pierce a 1b option.
    Who's talking about being the number one option? We're talking about player value here buddy.

    A true MVP does not have a wing man who is just as much the alpha male as he is. In addition, KG had the best 3rd option in the NBA that year in Allen. A true MVP cannot have that much help..and if he does, he better win at least 70 games considering how weak the east was that year.
    Sounds like the "No true Scotsman" fallacy to me. You've just said the criteria is inconsistent (which if you were watching the game for a substantial amount of time then this is one of those "no **** Sherlock" moments). For the record I don't even think that he was the Mvp (Cp3 was my pick that year) but he does fit one of the precedents that have already been set for Mvp winners over the year.

    For Lebron to have as much help as he did in 2012 and not even have the best record in the league considering he was in the weak east just shows how much clearly did not deserve the MVP that year. If you hold Shaq and KG to a certain standard, you must hold Lebron to the same. Hypocrisy at it's finest. The 2012 MVP should have been Kevin Durant.
    Then don't watch.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er:24900402
    Quote Originally Posted by mngopher35 View Post
    Durant 2012: 28.0 ppg 8rpg 3.5 apg with TS% .61 PER 26.2 and WS/48 .230
    Lebron 2012: 27.1 ppg 7.9 rbp 6.2 apg with TS% .605 30.7 PER and WS/48 .298

    I think the stats are definitely on Lebron's side, especially when you then consider his superior defense (there was a bigger gap last year than this year).

    That said so far this year I see 4 people to consider: Durant, Paul, Lebron, Melo. At this moment I'd have melo at the bottom and the others as the top 3. Any order works for now because they all have arguments (cp3 currently best team but but his teammates are playing amazing and he doesn't have to do as much as the other two, Durant great stats great team, Lebron great stats great team). Until we know the final records and stats these three may move around a bit and Melo may come back into play. At this moment I would say Durant, Paul, then Lebron but its very close.
    So the main criteria for the MVP award is who has the best overall stats? 2011 Derrick Rose would disagree wholeheartedly.
    Why are you putting words in his mouth? You said that Lbj's stats and KD's were "on par" he just proved you wrong. How did you get from there all the way to Drose?


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er:24900436
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    You're missing the point. KG may not have statistically been the best player in the league or even on the Celtics, but he had arguably the biggest defensive impact on a team any single player has ever had. He changed the entire culture of the organization. That's why he was the MVP that year, at least in my eyes. You could argue for any of the four guys who were in the race that year (CP3, Kobe, LeBron), but I'd give it to KG. Only KG leads that team to a title. Replace him with any other big man and they lose to the Lakers. Dwight Howard doesn't have the force of personality to do what KG did. No other big man could have come close.
    Ugh...Tom Thibodeau???
    Not discounting Coach Thib's defensive acumen but the Celtics we're still an elite defense after he left. It's not as if Kg is a system player, without putting any thought into it, he's a top 10 defender of all time.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhymeratic View Post
    Shoot I'd even put up Glen Rice and Mitch Richmond in their prime at or slightly better than James. Even Glenn Robinson who is a forgotten beast.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoveMeOrHateMe View Post
    Kobe GOAT LOL
    ^Finally got one.

  8. #563
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    Gotta say I agree with ballhog's points on nearly all counts, including the fact that a case can be argued for any of those four that year. But simply put, KG did in fact change the culture of that organization, it's been reverberated and documented by fellow players and insiders 10 times over. And to say that about the Boston Celtics organization of all places is incredible. In my mind he's not only the MVP of that season, but one of the GOAT MVP's in league history for what he did there. That said, he wasn't a fancy box-score player, and too many people are still too brainwashed to understand how much more to the game there is than those raw numbers.

    As for this year, still KD in my opinion. Lebron is right there. Love Cp3, but the bench has been too incredible for me to give him 1a/b billing as of yet.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    I said the clear cut best player on the best team. KG may have been the best player, but he wasn't overwhelmingly the best player on the best team. He had too great of wing men in Pierce and Allen. Thats also why they didn't give MVP to Shaq in 2001,2002...he had Kobe. lol yet they give it to Lebron 2012 even though he had Wade and Bosh. Makes no sense.

    2008 Garnett: 18.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg .588 TS%

    2008 Pierce: 19.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, .599 TS%

    2008 Allen: 17.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, .584 TS%

    Honestly, it's debatable if KG was the best player on the Celtics in 2008. He was clearly not the clear cut dominant leader of the team. Pierce scored more per game and was more efficient as well as the better playmaker. KG had him in rebounds and defense. If you want to say that KG was the number one option...which he clearly wasn't nor was he in crunch time...than you would have to give Pierce a 1b option. A true MVP does not have a wing man who is just as much the alpha male as he is. In addition, KG had the best 3rd option in the NBA that year in Allen. A true MVP cannot have that much help..and if he does, he better win at least 70 games considering how weak the east was that year.

    For Lebron to have as much help as he did in 2012 and not even have the best record in the league considering he was in the weak east just shows how much clearly did not deserve the MVP that year. If you hold Shaq and KG to a certain standard, you must hold Lebron to the same. Hypocrisy at it's finest. The 2012 MVP should have been Kevin Durant.
    shouldn't it have been tony parker by your logic?

  10. #565
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    kg was clearly the best player on that team amos1er showing how paranoid he is of lebron catching kobe so he discredits lebron in every way he can atleast he did it from his real account this time. and he says hes not a hater smh.

  11. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    Sadly the majority of novice NBA fans are also brainwashed into believing this crap...thats why the media gives Lebron added considerations where as they don't with other candidates.
    but you're a novice nba fan at least judging by your basketball iq.

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    So the main criteria for the MVP award is who has the best overall stats? 2011 Derrick Rose would disagree wholeheartedly.
    No, but you said Durant's stats were on par so I wanted to show you they weren't. Lebron was the better player with better stats and that is the main reason he won MVP. If there had been a significant difference in their teams record I can see how that may overshadow what Lebron did, but the difference was like one game.

    My point is when you have the best player in the league with the best stats (in large majority's eyes), if his team is at or near the top he should have a strong chance to win it. The criteria is never completely consistent so I just don't understand someone saying the best player in the league, playing the best basketball, on a top team doesn't deserve an mvp. Maybe you have different criteria that you stick to and that is totally fine, I just don't see the point in arguing against Lebron in 2012 at this point. Also I don't think their support was that much different at all. Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka and solid role players vs Wade (missed 17 games), Bosh, and solid role players.

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnsanity View Post
    You're missing the point. KG may not have statistically been the best player in the league or even on the Celtics, but he had arguably the biggest defensive impact on a team any single player has ever had. He changed the entire culture of the organization. That's why he was the MVP that year, at least in my eyes. You could argue for any of the four guys who were in the race that year (CP3, Kobe, LeBron), but I'd give it to KG. Only KG leads that team to a title. Replace him with any other big man and they lose to the Lakers. Dwight Howard doesn't have the force of personality to do what KG did. No other big man could have come close.
    LOL KG DESTROYS everyone on his team statistically
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by amos1er View Post
    I said the clear cut best player on the best team. KG may have been the best player, but he wasn't overwhelmingly the best player on the best team. He had too great of wing men in Pierce and Allen. Thats also why they didn't give MVP to Shaq in 2001,2002...he had Kobe. lol yet they give it to Lebron 2012 even though he had Wade and Bosh. Makes no sense.

    2008 Garnett: 18.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg .588 TS%

    2008 Pierce: 19.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 4.5 apg, .599 TS%

    2008 Allen: 17.4 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 3.1 apg, .584 TS%

    Honestly, it's debatable if KG was the best player on the Celtics in 2008. He was clearly not the clear cut dominant leader of the team. Pierce scored more per game and was more efficient as well as the better playmaker. KG had him in rebounds and defense. If you want to say that KG was the number one option...which he clearly wasn't nor was he in crunch time...than you would have to give Pierce a 1b option. A true MVP does not have a wing man who is just as much the alpha male as he is. In addition, KG had the best 3rd option in the NBA that year in Allen. A true MVP cannot have that much help..and if he does, he better win at least 70 games considering how weak the east was that year.
    How do you come up with these rules? So your saying the Celtics would basically have to match the win total of those MJ Bulls despite playing in a tougher era?

    And those stats look like an onslaught to me, especially when you consider the chasm of a difference in their defensive lines.

    For Lebron to have as much help as he did in 2012 and not even have the best record in the league considering he was in the weak east just shows how much clearly did not deserve the MVP that year. If you hold Shaq and KG to a certain standard, you must hold Lebron to the same. Hypocrisy at it's finest. The 2012 MVP should have been Kevin Durant.\
    What if some of us are not convinced you know how to accurately/objectively weigh ones supporting cast?
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  15. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by tredigs View Post
    Gotta say I agree with ballhog's points on nearly all counts, including the fact that a case can be argued for any of those four that year. But simply put, KG did in fact change the culture of that organization, it's been reverberated and documented by fellow players and insiders 10 times over. And to say that about the Boston Celtics organization of all places is incredible. In my mind he's not only the MVP of that season, but one of the GOAT MVP's in league history for what he did there. That said, he wasn't a fancy box-score player, and too many people are still too brainwashed to understand how much more to the game there is than those raw numbers.

    As for this year, still KD in my opinion. Lebron is right there. Love Cp3, but the bench has been too incredible for me to give him 1a/b billing as of yet.
    KG's the MVP of that year+playoffs, no doubt about it
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

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